Lotus Elan

FIA Appendix K

PostPost by: pinsx3 » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:15 pm

Does anyone have a list of what are the sticking points. I have heard rumors such as

no six bolt lip seal cranks
no adjustable rear suspension arms
no adjustable spring perches

I reviewed appendix K and confirmed the last one, but I did not see anything about the cranks having to have four bolts.
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PostPost by: Dag-Henning » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:05 am

Hi ! - this would depend upon what period you are running in! An Elan in Period "F" (- 65) must run the 4 bolt crank. If you run an S3 or 4 in period "G" ( 66-71) you can use the 6-bolt set up. The basis is the homologation papers and the periode .
Regarding the adjustable arms and perches ; - you can run them if they were "periode specification". I do not know anyone who run an Elan with 6" rims without the adjustable perches ( - due to the lack of space ) , but they are supposed to be "fixed" or locked in one position.
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PostPost by: batfish » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:54 pm

Hi

I am of the understanding that you can run adjustable suspension arms if you intend to apply for a technical passport relating to non original copies, ie a non original 26R, if you want a passport as an original car ie S1 or S2 you would have to fit non adjustable suspension arms. I have recently read that the licencing of new copies is under review by the FIA and may be disallowed in the future

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PostPost by: Dag-Henning » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:52 pm

- it is easy to agree that the regulations set in App.K are not very accurate, and will always be exposed to local interpretations. This is somewhat unfortunate, (!) but when the basis for what you are allowed to do is a mix of the homologation papers and "what was period spesification", it is difficult to avoid these "interpretations". To some people this is OK, but for others , with a wish to be accurate, it is a pain. There are always someone who "used to know someone who ran this or that spec" 40 year ago, and my experience is that this is a never ending story!
Only a couple of years ago, FIA allowed "copies" to enter the races, as long as the spec was the correct one. You could turn a 1200 Cortina into a full spec Lotus-Cortina, or make a 26R out of a std. S1/ S2. I believe this was done to help more people and cars onto the track. How they possibly can try to reverse this, is almost unbelieveable. There must today be more than 100 "26R" running around in Europe, some of them with adjustable suspension arms. I know that some local scruteneers aprove, and others don't......Likewise, I know some countries close their eyes to big valves and square main caps, - others don't...You will of course also allways have those who tries to bend the rules, - Chapman habit....-but again....
My experience comes from the Scandinavian countries, where I believe you have allways had a local twist/ adjustment to the rules. Both Sweden and Denmark have had their local adjustments of the regulations. Nowedays I believe they are all trying to reach a consencus. This is a difficult matter, but I do hope that the rules do not become so rigid and difficult to follow that the sport as such will suffer. This is in a way partly up to the people who race, as I believe we all have an obligation to try to keep the cars as historically correct as possible, and not only try to win the race ! Historic racing is so much more than just about winning ....!!

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PostPost by: pinsx3 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:48 pm

Thank you for the information. It sounds as complicated in Europe as it is here. I am glad the perches have not been an issue.

My car (advertised right now) has a six bolt crank -- could I prepare it as an S3? Or would that be disallowed because of the S1 top and window shape?

I like that bit about the Skandahoovian countries. That probably explains why my friend's TC escort from Finland has a volvo rear end with five bolt wheels.

Pete
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PostPost by: Dag-Henning » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 am

Pete, - to prepare/ presente an S1 as an S3 doesn't seem right to me.....
An S1 is so much more desireable as a historic race car. From where I am standing, it seems you have the wrong crank......Whether your car would pass as a "G" car I just wouldn't know, because I have never met the problem from that direction....... :shock: If you want to present a correct S1 Elan according to App.K, - and get a straight HTP-, I believe you have to deal with the crank......... Sorry...!

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PostPost by: cabc26b » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:36 pm

Pete,

You might want to browse and print a copy of the RAC homologation papers for the car. I always keep mine with me at the track in case there are questions on dry sumping , I run a SII elan and here in the states I point to the updates to the forms for 1966 that list the drysump and other internal engine goodies , as you know , there is no dispensation in back dateing your lotus racing car here in the states.

my understanding on the FIA engines spec's for 1965 and earleir are that they were quite restrictive. You have to run small valves, 4into2into1 exhaust, mainbearing have to be the cast iron type ( or made to looke like them :shock: ) cast ropeseal cranks ( there are en19 4bolts out there if you only need to worry about the fixing of the flywheel) no drysump. I was considering the construction os a FIA engine here , but the only person I trust who is doing them is backloged years out.... They make surprising power, I just don't know how long they last.

On the suspension stuff, I guess I would call TTR, I am sure they could point you to a solution there ( I wonder if you could get away with setting the car up with the adjustable perches, then tack welding them in place ?).
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:44 pm

Is it feasible for someone who has a current (or even recent) set of FIA spec papers for the Elan to post them here (I have no idea how many pages this runs to).
I'd be interested to see either papers for the 26/R (although it wasn't homologated as such at the time) or for what is now known as a GTS. I already have copies of FIA papers 127 and 527 but it is clear that much more exists.

Thanks in anticipation.
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PostPost by: batfish » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:58 pm

Pete

The MSA sent me 17 pages of 127 not including pages for the safety roll bar, 2 of of which specifically state manufactureres ref 26/R. I also have 3 pages of FIA papers numbered 127 showing adjustable suspension..
I can copy and post them if you want.
I do not have any numbered 527, are those for series 3 and 4 cars.

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Andy
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:11 pm

Apologies for slow response, Andy- and thanks for forwarding the 127 papers. The 527 record I have is from the original version of the Robinson and Ross book; it is for Group 3 Grand Touring. These date between 1/2/66 and 1/11/68, so they do partially cover the S3, specifically mentioning the new body shape and Coupe.

A couple of interesting things: despite lots of cars having cooling adaptions for the differential (of various designs) I can't see anything in either the 127 or 527 papers referring to this.

Another variation between standard cars and the 26/R is the lack of an air-vent and plenum on the 26/R shell (there is no room between the rear edge of the bonnet and the base of the windscreen) this does not get a mention either.

The above leaves me wondering if I still don't have a full deck of cards! :twisted:
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PostPost by: Greg Cozier » Sat May 17, 2014 9:48 am

The answer is more complicated that that.

In period, the homologation form established the specification of the production car is it 'left the factory' and in what quantities. Additionally various competitions were run under the FIA regulations which allowed different freedoms in different groups for further modifications to the car.

E.g., prior to 1968 most rallies were for Gp1 cars only, while in 1968 the British Saloon Car Championship was for Group 2 cars with extra allowances like aftermarket heads. The AMR Escorts ran F2 Cosworth FVA heads on the Twink bottom ends in 68 but then these were banned in 69..

The FIA period regulations are here.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... pen&lang=a

IN addition, some series have 'proof of use in period' as a further qualification so even if there is an allowance for twin spark plugs you have to prove someone did it in period.
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Thu May 29, 2014 11:45 am

Greg, thanks SO much for posting the FIA links, quite a bit of bed-time reading there. :wink:

It seems the more I learn the less I know!
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PostPost by: holywood3645 » Thu May 29, 2014 7:31 pm

I have a copy of the Appendix 'K' regulations. Gregg's link is to Appendix 'J'
I dont know 'if' and 'how' they differ. Below is a small extract from 'K'
It is a 7mb file so i can host a link to download document. Please senfd me your e-mail address if you are interested.

"The FIA has created the regulations in Appendix K so that
Historic Cars may be used for Competitions under a set of
rules that preserve the specifications of their period and prevent
the modifications of performance and behaviour which could
arise through the application of modern technology. Historic
competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire
trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential
ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history. Historic
Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the
Motor Car.
1.2 Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition
cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models
with international competition history complying with the
International rules of the period.
The only permissible variations to the period specification are
those authorised within Appendix K.
Cars without an international competition history but which have
a competition history in national championship Competitions or
other significant national Competitions of equivalent status may
also be accepted.
If a model has not taken part in period in international races,
HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC
supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model
has a history in period of competition in Competitions of national
significance
"

James
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PostPost by: Greg Cozier » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:06 am

holywood3645 wrote:I have a copy of the Appendix 'K' regulations. Gregg's link is to Appendix 'J'
I dont know 'if' and 'how' they differ. Below is a small extract from 'K'


If a model has not taken part in period in international races,
HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC
supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model
has a history in period of competition in Competitions of national
significance[/i]"

James


Hi James,

FIA regs say that historic cars must be built to period homologation forms, period modification allowances (App J of the period the car is entered) and those modifications must be proven to be used in period.

So, a Mk1 Escort would have had useless axle links on the homologation form, all axle links would have been free in period but you have to use the types Ford used in period, not any you can think up now.

Racing is much gentler on cars than rallying so many historic race cars are actually the ones raced in period with all their teefin' modifications as used then. For rallying virtually all of our cars are copies because the originals are either dead, reshelled several times or not up to any more abuse. This is where the paragraph about copies becomes relevant.

Where things get complicated is after the major FIA rule change in 76 that limited the rear axle freedoms. Ford rehomologated the Escort as a model that did not exist in production called the Escort RS. In the forms they put a 5-link rear axle but in period the factory used a 6-link axle and it is accepted by the FIA on modern reproductions.

Similarly, in 72 the factory used a 6-link axle on the Monte with no leaf springs, only coils around the vertical dampers. Regs stated springs could be added, not removed; so the coils were legal but not the leaf removal. The car was super-bent but won the class and no-one did anything about it. Likewise the 79 Monte Escorts were super bent in every possible way the chassis could be cut and shut but modern reproductions are accepted on FIA events.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:02 pm

Yeah similar rules apply here in my historic production sports car racing class that allow links to be added but springs and links to not be removed. So you see MGBs with 5 or 6 link rear end and a couple of extremely thin leaf springs there for decoration and rule compliance!!!

cheers
Rohan
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