Uh-Uh! White Asbestos!

[david.g.chapman]

I am in the middle of refurbishing the underneath of my +2, at the back around the exhaust area.

A PO has painted the body black from the spare wheel tray right up to the rear bumper. It does not look too bad, but I would rather it be corrected to body colour from the bumper to the seam and lip around the spare wheel.

Anyway, I had to remove the heat shield as part of this work, and when it finally came away the pop rivets had corroded and it split into two aluminium sheets with what looks like white asbestos in the middle! No surprise really - it was still the material to use in 1970, I suppose. Thinking about it there is probably nothing else that can beat it today. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I carefully put it down and had a think.... I intend to keep the asbestos (which is in good shape) and rivet the two ali sheets together again around it - while wearing a face mask of course!

Just a word of warning to anyone else doing a similar job - if those fibres get into you they don't come out again.

Dave Chapman.

[elanfan1]

David - STOP!!

Before you go any further please get some professional advice regarding this (there are possibilities of legal action being taken by the HSE should you choose to proceed without the necessary advice and safety precautions which 'might' include professional removal of the asbestos!). I'd recommend a call to your local HSE office or alternately if you ring Aviva Risk Management Solutions Helpline they'll give you free advice too 0500 55 99 77 .

White asbestos is nasty stuff and a face mask will NOT protect you. Fibre sizes will be so small they will probably pass through the mask and eventually cause problems. Even the filtered air supply masks used by asbestos removal contractors let through a couple of hundred parts per million so that job seems a bit of a death wish. Let me put into perspective - removing a drawing pin from a piece of asbestos releases about 40,000 fibres as can be testified to by the 300 plus teachers who are dying of asbestosis each year (the temporary buildings (terrapins) we used to call them often have asbestos in them - appalling really to think of the thousands of children taught in them over the years.

Please do not be tempted to reuse it - if you have to handle it at all double bag it until you can get some advice and I'd allow a draught to blow through your garage for as long as you can.

Good Luck

Steve

[alaric]

Hi. I just read the wikipedia page about asbestos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos

Interestingly the use of asbestos appears not to be banned in the USA. It is most other places especially in the uk where there is no threshold of exposure above which you are considered at risk - any exposure may result in illness. Scary stuff.

Your local council should be able to advise also.

So will my +2 have the same heat shield - I thought it was just a couple of pieces of aluminium riveted together that was corroding in places - ally does go to a white powder when it oxidises.

Regards.

Sean.

[StressCraxx]

Agreed that friable asbestos is a hazard to your lungs. Greatest risk is if you are a smoker, and worked with asbestos every day. Easiest ways to mitigate the hazard are:

Wet down the asbestos material so there is no dust

Wear a HEPA particulate respirator mask - available at industrial safety supply houses

Tyvek coveralls and rubber gloves.

When you are done, wet the waste and gloves, coveralls you used, put everything in a plastic trash bag, tie the bag off and discard.

Anyway, you cannot positively identify if it is asbestos unless you have it examined under a microscope.

Last, what are you worried about? For over a hundred years, clutch disks, brake linings and pads have been made from asbestos and you have been breathing it every time you did a brake or clutch job!!

Regards,
Dan Wise

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Crikey,
is asbestos really so bad?
The insulation described in the problem was widely used on hot components throughout industry.
Asbestos was all over the place when I was a Kid & I get the impression that the danger of the stuff seems to be blown way out of proportion.
Nearly all out buildings & garages were built with the stuff.
Ships piping was insulated with it. etc., etc.
My old dad used to do silver soldering (on Jewelry repairs) with a mouth blown brazing blow pie connected to the mains gas.
He could maintain a continuous blue/white flame by breathing in through his nose & out into the blow pipe, quite a clever trick.
Oh and the piece being worked on was placed on a thick block of soft Asbestos which frequently threw up sparks only inches away from his nose.
Oh again; he did die of lung cancer, but that was down to his Fag habit (I think).

Surely the danger in Asbestos is dependent on the amount of its dust that is inhaled?
Bearing that in mind, I don't think we'll ever get guys to do down into mines for Coal the way they used to.
Silicosis was a big problem caused by the dust in an 8 hour 6 day week environment.
But doesn't something like that perhaps give some proportion to the Asbestos danger?
Is it a case of "Health & Safety" rules?

Cheers
John

[mikealdren]

John,
I'm sure you're right. It's all down to understanding risk and in our nanny state, health and safety are taking over the world.

As I understand it, there have been cases where lung disease has been caused by very few fibres so it's quite possible that the minute amounts may be dangerous to those who are susceptible and/or unlucky. As a result, there are those who worry that you can will suffer fatal illness by looking at it! However, those of us who were around before the hysteria began (was it in the in the late '60s?) will certainly have been exposed to it and there are lots of us still here.

Yes asbestos is dangerous and should avoided wherever possible. I think the dangers of glass fibres are just as worrying to most on this forum and the carcinogens in old engine oil and carbon monoxide fumes and .....................

Mike

[david.g.chapman]

First of all many thanks to everyone who has replied - I have the whole spectrum of responses from "safety first" to "it's not that bad really".

I am sure we would like to know if the material is asbestos or not. Anyone out there in the know?

I have now pop-riveted the two halves together again and put it to one side. There was minimal disturbance to the "asbestos" as existing holes were re-used. You would do as much to it putting it in a bag anyway. I also wore a face mask while doing the work.

If we are thinking of replacing the heat shield, something has to be identified that is as good as the "asbestos". I do not want to set fire to the back of my car, and the exhaust does get very hot.

Dave.

[jono]

Dave,

The only way to know is to have a sample tested by a UKAS lab - costs about ?20 per sample.

Visually if you look closely at the material asbetos will show small bundles of fibres sticking out at the cut edges.

Personally I wouldn't worry. I have been exposed, in the course of my work as a surveyor, to a lot of asbestos in my time and so far I have not contracted anything. It is true to say that asbestos is a nasty material but it requires pronolgned exposure (think working with it every day - laggers, shipyard workers etc) to place you at a real risk. It has been exagerated by HSE and our nanny state - it does require respect but we need to keep it in proportion.

Jon

[69S4]

[quote="david.g.chapman"

If we are thinking of replacing the heat shield, something has to be identified that is as good as the "asbestos". I do not want to set fire to the back of my car, and the exhaust does get very hot.

Dave.[/quote]


Six or seven years ago I noticed some of the glass fibre on the passenger footwell (UK S4) was starting to splinter from radiated manifold heat. I cut down a plumbing mat that I bought in B&Q to act as a heatshield - just glued it in place. Not only has it done the job, it's still ok after six years. Whatever it's made of (can't be asbestos) it certainly does the job. It must be possible to track down some larger bits (the plumbing one is only about 9" square).

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

First of all many thanks to everyone who has replied - I have the whole spectrum of responses from "safety first" to "it's not that bad really".

I am sure we would like to know if the material is asbestos or not. Anyone out there in the know?

I have now pop-riveted the two halves together again and put it to one side. There was minimal disturbance to the "asbestos" as existing holes were re-used. You would do as much to it putting it in a bag anyway. I also wore a face mask while doing the work.

If we are thinking of replacing the heat shield, something has to be identified that is as good as the "asbestos". I do not want to set fire to the back of my car, and the exhaust does get very hot.

Dave.

Well why not bin the old stuff & buy some new heat insulation, which looks very similar, from someplace like demon tweeks?
I'm sure the bin man won't go rummaging through your bin in a search for what may be asbestos
John

[tinker]

Reading through this post i was horrified at some of the posters blaisse attitude towards asbestos, regardess of what, who, where,when was exposed to asbestos in one way or another before its health issues were fully understood, it only takes one particle/fibre of asbestos in your system to develop a terminal (meaning end of your life) condition. Most asbestos related health issues manifest later on in life, not over night or next week. Messing around with asbestos causes particles to become airborne, putting people around you at risk. Should i be horrified, You bet. Tony Costin

[JJDraper]

One thing that could be explored is a note/email to the Lotus factory, but as a responsible manufacturer (long shot I know!) they should be able to identify the material used.

Jeremy

[rdssdi]

My +2 was missing the heat shield. I am lucky in that regard.

I purchased a new heat shield. Appears to made of a molded wood like material.

I may have purchased it from RD enterprises here in the U.S. but cannot remember for certain.

Whatever you do please remove it and dispose it properly.

Bob
1969 Elan +2
1968 TVR Vixen
1963 Jaguar MK2 3.4

[elanfan1]

Reading through this post i was horrified at some of the posters blaisse attitude towards asbestos, regardess of what, who, where,when was exposed to asbestos in one way or another before its health issues were fully understood, it only takes one particle/fibre of asbestos in your system to develop a terminal (meaning end of your life) condition. Most asbestos related health issues manifest later on in life, not over night or next week. Messing around with asbestos causes particles to become airborne, putting people around you at risk. Should i be horrified, You bet. Tony Costin

Which is what I was alluding to - you 'can' go to jail for messing with asbestos and disregarding the dangers and putting others at risk. The results of your exposure may not be be known for 30/40 years and I can confirm these particles lodge in your lungs and cause irritation leading to a cancer after a long time. The usual mucus membranes/lung cleaning systems do not clean out these particles - you may be lucky or too old already to care what happens in 30/40 years but you can be sure a single exposure could be fatal in the long term.

As mentioned 300+ teachers are dying each year from asbestos exposure - many more contractors are also - i.e. did you know 1960's/1970's artex has asbestos fibres in it - so every drill hole in a ceiling is a potential deathtrap!. This might sound like H&S gone mad (and yes I have a qualification in such matters and is a small part of my job) but I can assure you it is to yours and your loved ones benefit (remember the cases of the wives who were washing husbands work clothes and dying from the fibres they brought home!!) Do not treat this lightly guys this stuff is a killer!!


As to another suggestion on here about old out buildings garages etc being constructed of the stuff - well not quite. That is asbestos cement sheet where the asbestos is encapsulated in cement. It is a smaller risk because of this but it is still dangerous which is why you need a licence to dispose of it. Last I heard a skip full of this was around ?1200 to dispose of. Even this is can be dangerous.

Let's be careful out there!

[hartley hare]

"silencer shields !!"



run for your lives!!!!!





good luck dave...