Who has the best +2 replacement part currently?

[Sea Ranch]

Greetings, Plus 2 people.

I've made the topic subject-line a little vague because I thought perhaps others might like to piggy-back on this thread with their own replacement part questions or updates, and we might keep this dicussion and info together in one thread for a while . . .

I'm getting ready to buy some parts and was wondering what the current state of quality is for:
*chrome-plastic trim for bonded windscreens
*door seal
*boot seal

I see that some factors are offering the "bulb" type door seal/gasket for Plus 2s, as opposed to the original "flange" style. Has anyone bought and installed door seal recently that they liked, and had the correct fit? If so - or not - where did you get it from?

What about boot seal? What I have on my car - bulb type - is very possibly not original and didn't do a great job dealing with the curves and dips along the bumper side of the boot opening. Anyone have any good experiences with currently available materials? From where?

Similarly, wondering if anyone has bought and installed the exterior chrome plastic trim/surround for the bonded-in windscreen on Plus 2S cars. What were your thoughts on how correct the part looks, quality, and installation?

Thanks so much for your input . . . as always, I'm sure forum members will have lots of wisdom to share (or at least some trivia/nonsense to make an old Lotus guy/gal smile) . . .

Regards,

Randy

[Plus 2]

Hi again Randy,

In answer to your posted questions, I don't have the plastic windscreen surround and fortunate to be one of the rare Ford Capri stainless ones. In saying that I have just replaced the rear chrome insert and was very dissapointed with it. Over the past 45 years I have used and replaced lots of these on British cars with no problem and apart from a bit of discolouration on my old one the cut ends were still perfect and no delamination or ingress.

I prefer to mitre each side on the rear of the +2 rather than just a single joint in the lower centre. All was fine until I started to clean the window and the liquid window cleaner just sucked up into each mitre cut with capilliary action. A close inspection of some of the off cuts revealed the adhesion to the chrome insert layer and the plastic not as well bonded as it obviously used to be. Fortunately the plastic front screen +2 has finishers which cover over the joints but I would certainly seal off the ends with something like a superglue to prevent premature water ingress into the lamination.

As for the door aperture rubber seal I used the standard bulb type rather than the lip seal. I buy it by the metre on a roll and it is not expensive. In addition I have fitted the top inner wing seal. This really does protect the top front door card from getting damp and rotting. I have seen these in the Lotus parts manuals but never seen them actually fitted or even obtainable for the +2. Not wanting to use a metal plate either and would have had to take the door off to drill for rivets I used the two part adhesive with activator that RR fit their boot seal with and used an old piece of the RR boot seal which I had replaced. Works perfect and still in place 20 years on and provides perfect water tight seal......have to protect those lambswool rugs.

The boot seal is quite critical and needs a small profile otherwise you will likely end up with crazing slamming it shut if it is too tight and poor collapsing around the tight bend contours. This has always been a problem even on modern cars but can be solved by inserting soft foam inserts just into the areas where it can be seen the seal collapses.

Paint sprayers use a soft foam to seal off shut lines from overspray ingress which would probably work. It only needs a few inches and if the seal is marked where the collapsing areas are the foam can easily be pushed through into place then fitted.

At the time I did mine I found the Jaguar E-type boot seal was perfect slim profile and soft 'sure hardness'.

With eBay now access to these seals is quite easy and when the mice ate away my 308 boot seal again another low profile seal I was able to get a few metres direct from one listed on our UK ebay site.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Monkeydub-Car- ... 2396309015
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rubber-car-va ... 337781d308

Most auto trimmers will carry these parts in stock by the roll and it works out far cheaper to buy by the metre even if a foot or so left over. Alternatively caravan and boat suppliers have these items too.

In the UK we have a great supplier 'Woolies' for all classic car trim even do some old vinyls (sadly not the original Lotus?MGB pattern as NLA), also headlining material, rubber sections and many fastenings. http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/ again from my experience parts work out a lot cheaper than buying from a marque vendor agent.

Hope this helps

All the best

[Sea Ranch]

Hi, Steve. Thanks for the input.

I've read through a couple times, gone to check my car, and I think I'm following what you're saying.

As for the seals, I checked that ebay site; great selection that company has, and a cheap sample pack, too And I'll check locally for the variety available here. I want to find the right seal and do body work with doors, boot lid, bonnet and pods installed, with right seals, so I know I'm getting everything aligned and the gaps correct.

Great idea on the boot lid seal. That is exactly what my bulb type seal was doing: folding and collapsing around the sharp corners and dips. I definitely follow what you're saying there. I'm seen soft round-section foam available; that would be perfect to insert into the right spots.

With the door seals, my original stuff has fabric weave on the U-channel section; so nice, but I suppose availability has long since dried up. Also, my car has the inner wing seal, complete with metal mounting plate, but the rubber has dried and crumbled. I assumed this was why there is a strip of household weather stripping stuck to the door opposite the inner wing seal, so they would meet. But are you saying you installed a seal on both surfaces? The gap was big enough, or the RR seal you used low enough that you needed the two layers working together?

Thanks for the pix of your Plus 2; the stainless Capri windscreen trim is obviously beautiful and, fortunately, reusable because I believe it too is unobtainium. If I came across some, I would use it As it is, I am going to try to salvage my existing/original plastic stuff, because it has only one small flaw in the chrome film, near a corner. We'll see how it goes. Odds are I will have to use some replacement part (thus the call for opinions/experiences).

And you're saying you like to mitre the chrome filler strip on the rear window, not just the window gasket itself. That makes sense. My rear window gasket looks original (like a very old man's skin, and black rubs off it) and the filler strip long ago went yellow/orange so previous owners used a black felt marker on it! I'll remember the suggestion to seal cut ends.

Hey, I thought your Plus 2 had a black roof; now I see it's purple!!! I love your willingness to "personalize"!!! Awesome

Okay, check in again . . .

Randy

[Sea Ranch]

Went over my pix and have a lovely one of the upper/inner wing seal, seriously degraded . . .

No wonder a PO put some stick-on weather stripping on the door opposite this piece, to get some contact and sealing happening

Randy

[Plus 2]

Hi Randy

Interesting stuff on the top door wing seal. When I tried to get the parts over 20 years ago i was told Lotus actually never fitted these albeit they were intended on the design plans like the baby Elan which I have seen fitted something on the inner wing.

I have fitted two seals one at the front of the door that is glued to the fibreglass lip, this was just an L shape seal. If you look at a lot of modern cars the secondary door seal now to reduce wind noise are just glued in place.

The other that is on the top inner wing does part of the travel at the top the seals do mate up for a small section.

As for the rear window seal again I just bought a standard length off the roll from a winscreen company and mitred the joints with rubber loctite. Same thing happened to my chrome strip it went gold looking but I think this was the exposed plastic rather than the inner chrome but still could not be cleaned. The chrome strip is really cheap as is the window rubber.

If taking on this I would also prepare to get 5 or 7 maybe new parcel shelf brackets as I would suspect they will be rotten.

I have just replaced my parcelshelf, again, the speakers that were fitted before were some aftermarket ones. They were nice but the outer plastic had shrunk and the speaker mesh kept popping out and rattling on the rear screen.

As for panel profiling door shuts etc correct settings on the door locks is what is essential the front hinges are easy to space out and profile. The rubbers usually mainly affect the door closing loads rather than fit/finish. Again why it is essential to get a soft (sure) oopps edited (should be 'shore' for sure) hardness rubber as if too hard then you will eventually find crazing all round your door handle as it has to be slammed. As far as I am aware the material coated and flock coated styles are still available but more expensive. The material ones tend to fade and wear through. Many of the plastic edged ones have a material grain embossed in them so look OK and wear/last much longer .

Yes the roof is Suzuki metallic purple (ish) unfortunately the code writing on the tin has faded but won't be too difficult to get again.

All the best

Steve

PS miss BC.....when I was a gaurantee engineer building ships in Japan on commisioning we used to sail to Vancouver and around picking up wood and paper pulp for London. Used to come back through the Panama Canal. Other times we would go through to the great lakes past Montreal through the St Lawrence.

[Sea Ranch]

Egg-cellent. Thanks once again for the tips and insight. The forward-upper door ideas are great. And a door that shuts lightly, but has full weather seal contact and waterproofing all around is definitely the target to shoot for.

Say, what a life you've had. So interesting to travel and see those places, and from the view on a ship

Regards,

Randy

[Plus 2]

Hi Randy,

Here are pics of my boot seal to give you something of an idea what can be achieved.

Also added a picture of the textured embossed door seal.

Life has been real good, had to leave the sea job as just always sea sick and never got over it.

Came out and set my own automotive component manufacturing and supply business up then sold out for lottery winning figures with the help of Quinton Hazell introductions who had not that long before sold his own business.

Had to take a 3 year non competition sabatical so just bought classic cars for fun and something to do. Eventually got bored not working and joined a British carmaker managing the production of all engineering prototypes.

All the best

Steve

[stugilmour]

Randy, first time I have seen your secondary seal. I used stick on foam (with mixed results) attached to the riveted metal plate. It tends to crush down eventually, but is easy to replace.

I ordered secondary seals from Sue Miller a few years ago, and received two short pieces of a channel type seal, and was not sure how to install them. Only place I could see using them was on the sort of fin on the front of the door. Can't see in Steve's pic if this is similar to what he has on the door side?

I also tried for secondary seals from Sports Car World in Texas. Unfortunately this was during their company change over, so I never received them and therefore not sure what they had.

For door and boot seals I got the bulb type from Ray at RD. Boot is OK, although does crush in a bit at the corners. Doors still seem to stick out more than I would like, but like Steve mentions not sure if this is the seals or door catches / hinges. If I crank the doors tight enough to get a flush fit, the inside door catch won't release easily. Still drives me a bit crazy! Funny story though; when I had the car at LOG31 in Las Vegas just after getting the car on the road, Richard Parramint from Lotus commented on how good the door fit was, saying it was way better than the ones thay assembled back in the day.

Hint when fitting the door seal. The seal tends to shorten the radius in the upper corners. I cut my seals way too short, causing a gap at the bottom of the door opening. Best to take your time gluing the corners individually and waiting for the glue to set before moving to the next corner. Note headliner has to be in place first.

Stu

[Plus 2]

Stu,

I have not had any plus 2 doors to be a poor fit really or at least ones that could not be profiled with the hinge and doorlatch adjustments.

After Lotus design and the door manufacturer screwed up the Wee (bebe) Elan from day one Lotus made sure they got the fit right on the +2.

If your doors are bad so long as your door seal is a soft 'shore' rating all the rest is fully adjustable.

First thing is to place some short strips of door seal around the aperture and see if the door can fit and shut/open easily. This will identify if the seal profile is too hard/large.

Agree with your comments on the fitting of the rubbers but one other tip to be mindful of with ALL rubber strips or vinyl products on a roll is they are wound during extrusion or manufacturing onto the roll which is under tension and creates some stretching.

We would always leave vinyls or rubber strips cut off the roll for a couple of weeks laying flat before use to allow to shrink back. If put straight on the car eventually a gap occurs as the strip shrinks back over time being slower due to the retention of the fitting. Otherwise you may also see the strips start coming away at the corners as it shrinks.

I always force some compression into the strips as they are being fitted and finish the strip slightly oversize then force that further into compression along the length.

20 years on I still have no gap at the joints doors or boot.

Unfortunately 'post mould shrinkage' is appearing on many plastic moulding/extrusions with age. Electrical industry components are just as bad as autos. I have just had to change my parcel shelf as the aftermarket speaker housing and grille moulding had shrunk over 15 years and the speaker grilles just popped out and could not be refitted so rattled on the rear window.

Strands of glass fibre can be added to the mix on certain mouldings but wears tools out quicker so piece part price becomes more expensive.

Regards

Steve

edited for lousy spelling

[Sea Ranch]

Steve, that close-up shot of your boot seal shows just what I want. The U channel has the embossing that looks like my original woven fibre covering. And of course the way the bulb follows the curves and dips of the aperture with no kinking or collapsing shows how effective the foam insert trick is. Excellent.

And you bring up this expression again, which I now am guessing is a specific technical term: "soft sure rating". What is this?

Thanks for the insight on rubber production. Makes senses: placed onto a coil/roll soon as it comes out of the mold. So at least a couple weeks for the stuff to relax back to normal length, eh? I'll remember that

Randy

[Sea Ranch]

Nice to hear from you, Stu. Hope you're well. Wait 'till you see a pic of my car now! Mostly peeled of paint, and half stripped of parts. It's a sorry sight. And will keep going downhill for a while longer before it starts getting better again

As for the secondary seal on the forward/upper/inner wing, my piece is (obviously) so deteriorated that I could not accurately tell what the original type/section was. But the secondary on the door itself: I have gone down into the shop and tried to "piece" this story back together again (pun intended), because I can't remember how it was when I removed it all and that was just 2 days ago!

Here's what I know: my car's original door aperture seal was a combination flange-with-tiny-bulb style, with woven fabric covering the U channel. Very nice, but the fabric is worn and frayed on the bottom edge where your hand goes as you're getting in/out.

Factory used almost exactly the same seal on the flange that runs around the perimeter of the door (this seals flange is just a tiny bit shorter, that's all). This secondary seal on the door itself ran from the upper front (clamped by the chrome trim piece at the lower front edge of the window frame), down the front of the door and stopped short of going around the front lower corner.

Further, there is the the inner wing piece of seal, which appears to have a narrow U channel slipped over a strip of metal, which is in turn pop-riveted to the wing.

Here's the door aperture seal cross-section and material:

Here's the secondary door flange seal cross-section:

This pic clearly shows the secondary door flange seal attached to the front edge/flange of the door:

Finally, for those obsessed with detail like me . . . the inner wing seal, showing something of what the cross-section might have been like, and how the piece was slipped over (under) the metal strip and attached with rivets . . .

So there you have it. For all those who had this stuff on their cars and don't remember, or wanted to see what Lotus was doing on the production floor February 4, 1970 . . .

At least I know what I'm looking for in terms of door seals, now Thanks for all the help, Steve and Stu.

Randy

[Plus 2]

Hi Randy,

Forgive my error its a long time since I retired. I should say 'shore hardness'. It is not until I read someone else write it I notice.......maybe I should proof read more but of course spell check won't pick it up.

I remember when our team of test engineers were in Timmins (cold climate) they sent an email asking urgently for 'snow chairs'.......I could not resist sending them a couple of sun loungers along with some snow chains of course.

Anyway 'SHORE' hardness is a measure of soft materials like foam, sponge, rubber, epdm, plastic etc. (Similarly Rockwell hardness is a measure of the surface indentation hardness a common test on metals). For rubber seals though it is a most significant factor of fit and function quality if not correct. OE Manufacturing data is virtually impossible to get hold of and service suppliers often won't produce or stock the variations so you really have to ask or get samples.

Anything in a car interior now for legislation has to be a minimum of 5mm radius if contactable by a 125mm sphere (represents a childs head) also any material like the dash top/crash pads has to comply to a certain shore hardness. When producing car seats several values will be specified and used, ie in the centre the foam is required to be softer than the sides and in complex seats there will be various dual injected combinations. The control level in manufacturing for suppliers tolerances is maintained as a standard by the 'shore' hardness scale as is the door rubber seal trims.

Both the shore hardness of the rubber/epdm and the thickness of the profile together with the actual cross sectional design complexity all have an impact on how a rubber seal collapses when under load/compression then returns back (memory) and how it is able to be contoured for fit.

The combined length of the seal and the gap it is being compressed add up then also to what creates/varies the door shutting loads...........of course one other factor also plays a part and that is what we call 'body hole size'. We used to have a specialist team always working on door/boot/trunk shut loads

Air has to escape from the interior for general climate control fans etc but also when slamming a door shut to reduce the shut loads. Not too much of a problem on old design cars really, but with modern car and manufacturing techniques the natural areas that used to allow air release are so minimised with tighter tolerances now being achieved, and the desire for quieter driving with all the secondary seals.........just look how shut line gaps on modern cars are so small now.

Amazing how advanced the Lotus thinking was when you look back to the 60's/70's with electric windows, rear door lights and entry/exit puddle lights. In fact even back then I understand CC was planning a secondary seal around the +2 window frame aperture to the body. Look closely at the top surface of the window frame you will see it is actually a retention 'keyway'. Unfortunately I believe they could not maintain a constant gap between the frame and roof bodyline so it was never fitted.

As for the door front inner seal I found the fibreglass joint of inner outer skins edge thickness just too wide to fit a piece of door aperture style rubber which is why I found a cross section that could be simply glued in place.

I am amased that constantly being told Lotus never fitted the upper inner wing seal to the +2 that both you and Stu actually have them. I had never seen them on a UK car hence I believed what I was being told by Lotus agents when I sought to obtain parts. I only picked up the fact something was there from the parts manual and the fact my car door cards were actually so rotted on the top front corner I realised there was a water ingress issue. I dont think the rubbers actually creat a complete seal like a door aperture rubber but they do create a channel that allows the water to run down away from entering the interior or damaging the trim.

I like your attention to precise originality and what you describe with some great pictures on the rubber/EPDM trims sounds absolutely correct, but sometimes unless you are seeking an absolute 10/10 concours car some of the modern manufacturing techniques have produced better in service parts.

Couldn't leave without a picture so here is my 3 piece door card. Just in case the seals did not work I felt replacement of just the top roll part would be a simpler job so when I renewed I separated each piece..........not original but suits me......... thankfully though the seals have done a good job and like the consequences of not having any water management can be seen what happened on my underbonnet relay.

All the best

Steve

[potleyu18]

I recently fitted the chrome windscreen surround supplied from Paul Matty. at ?180

It was almost impossible to attach it to the screen and in the end I found a professional fitter to install and it was the best ?70 spent as he spent over 2 hours fitting it correctly and that included 2 tubes of sealant.

The top curves chrome have slightly creased which is disappointing but not too distracting.

good luck and make sure the sealant is strong enough to hold the screen in place.

Steve

[Sea Ranch]

Thanks, Steve from Camberley.

Wow, lots of money for that part, and then more to have it installed. I have to say that those who don't supply that particular reproduction have very harsh things to say about it: the quality, the usability and the price. No offense to those who've produced and who sell it.

I have heard Steve at SJ Sportscars say this past week that his reproduction of this plastic/chrome surround is in trials right now. No availability date.

For what it's worth, I believe my windscreen and surround to be original, and my surround has creases in the chrome foil. Seems it was close to impossible to get it installed perfectly, and certainly not consistently. I'll add a pic or two of mine later

Hope you're enjoying yours, Steve, and thanks for the contribution to this "file" . . .

Randy

[Sea Ranch]

Steve from UK/France, thanks for including that pic of your tripartite door card. That helps to show where the splits are and how it goes together. I see you've used plastic attachment plugs instead of the standard metal clips. I've never liked those metal clips. I do like how they allow some lateral movement to facilitate positioning, but at the same time that often means they're not holding on to much of the already weak board and when you pry them free they can tear out the board. I do like the factory's use of the plastic cup in the fiberglass hole of the door, as this prevents the end/edge of the metal clip from hanging up on the inside of the fiberglass panel. The clips do come out of the door pretty well.

And thanks for the explanation of the rubber terms. Now if only the suppliers of these things would supply technical info on the rubber

And now you've got me thinking about a seal around the upper edge of the window frame That would really cut down on wind noise, I'll bet. Interesting idea.

One of my doors has the front upper corner of the window frame rubbing through the paint and into the gel coat when it closes. Got to lower that frame in the door, I guess.

Randy