Lotus Elan

If It ain`t .........TTR Grrrrrrrrrrr

PostPost by: jimj » Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:19 pm

So needing new front dampers and wanting the best I phoned TTR. "What do I use the car for? Classic rallies. What with lots of tests, stop starts, clutch dropping? Yes. Have you got the CV joint conversion? Yes. Have you got strengthened diff. output shafts? Yes. Have you got the strengthened outboard shafts without the Woodruff key? What? Oh yes you`ll need them otherwise they`ll break for sure. Oh, well...go on then but how are they secured without the Woodruff key?"
You get the drift. He assured me that lapping then in then torqueing to 140lb/ft then re-torquing after 100 miles obviates the need for a key which is the weak point.
Yeah, right !! on the first practice test one failed. We torqued it up and it lasted a whole day, lying 6th out of 135, it went again. Damn. Epoxy metal bodge lasted another hour. They were expensive and so was the wasted entry fee !!
The guy who finished 2nd overall IN AN ELAN had exactly the same thing happen with 3 different TTR shafts when he built his Elan 4 years ago and he`s a professional motor engineer. He`s gone back to the proper ones. Malcolm Rickett and Don Hands, who were on the rally, couldn`t believe what TT was suggesting. 25 years of racing and they`ve never had a problem with the PROPER ones.
I know it`s a waste of time and temper ringing TT " I`ve sold hundreds without a problem". " You`ve fitted them wrong". Actually High Peak Classic Autos fitted them.
Anyway, I`ve got that off my chest, will order new parts from CN on Monday, and learnt an (expensive) lesson.
Grumpy Jim
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:26 pm

Jim

I've got a brand new old stock can of Snake Oil in the shed,it's yours for only £20.00...

John :wink:
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PostPost by: FOX5D » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:12 pm

Another grumpy Jim but on another TTR subject.

After receiving a rapid lecture about the principals of exhaust tuning (which I was in need of by the way), I recently bought from TTR a fast road exhaust system for my S3 sprint spec engined Elan. Hand made manifold, stainless pipe and transverse box-lovely system, but It would have been nice to have been told before buying that I would need to cut a large hole in the footwell and fit heatshields etc. The exhaust side of my engine bay now looks like Apollo 13 and it took me ages to cut the hole, lay up the sides, seal etc etc. etc. All I asked for was a system to get a Sprint performance from my upgraded motor-I didn't want to go racing or to survive re-entry to the earth's atmosphere!

I won't repeat my many (I nearly said manifold) curses. I will just echo grumpy Jim's restrained GRRR!

Jim
Always grateful for advice.
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:24 pm

Jim2

I've got a brand new old stock can of Snake Oil in the shed,it's yours for only £20.00...

John :wink:
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:00 pm

I have a much happier tale to tell. A couple of years ago I was looking at the radiators and swirl pots on the TTR stand, as I was thinking of upgrading my standard full-width radiator in my Plus 2, which is fitted with a BDA lump.

Mr TTR came over and I enquired…I have a 170bhp BDA in a Plus 2 and was looking at your radiators……….

Before I could finish the sentence I was told in no uncertain terms that I shouldn’t even think about running that engine in a Plus 2 with a standard radiator…it wouldn’t last 5 minutes. I then had to listen to several more minutes of the theory of cooling, together with the absolute requirement for the upgraded radiator, fans and swirlpot.

I didn’t have the heart to tell him that it had been running just fine for 37 years and 80,000 miles with that engine, and with most of that around London in heavy traffic, and several Southern European tours in summertime.

My car still has the standard radiator, and she was running just fine last weekend.

And standard output shafts as well!!

I'm sure that TTR do make good stuff and provide a great service to the racer boys, but youi can't always believe all the hype, that's for sure.

Mark
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PostPost by: reb53 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:07 am

"I didn’t have the heart to tell him that it had been running just fine for 37 years ".

Well, you're a better man than I am Gunga...I mean Mark.

I'm afraid I would have had no trouble telling him that. His response would have determined whether or not I ever bought anything off him in the future.

Ralph.
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PostPost by: neilsjuke » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:33 am

When I was looking for a Sprint had the same sales pitch telling me that unless you spend ££££££ they are unsafe will blow up wheels will fall of over heat bla bla.
It all ways reminds me of a holiday trip I did on Route 66 there was a lot of BS in Texas as well.
Neil
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PostPost by: Jolly Jumper » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:08 am

I always had very good service from TTR. Remember their main business is supplying parts for race Elans. That's their level: Competition. And they are at the top. So they must do something right.


If you take a standard Elan on track and really go for it, parts will brake, especially at the rear. It will happen even sooner with an uprated engine.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:00 am

I can understand why TTR delete the key as it does not do much and is a potential source of a stress raiser and failure. I use locally made high strength shafts which still have the key but I believe the key is really just for decoration :lol: .

I have sheared the key in half when a hub came loose at one time.

You really rely on the hub taper lock and that requires a really good fit between hub and shaft. Under racing conditions the cast iron bolt on hubs can distort and come loose on the taper. I dont know about the knock on hubs but potentially something similar can occur. You need hubs lapped in and checked for fit and then make sure they are kepted tight on the taper by regularly checking the nut torque. You also need to be careful the washer under the hub nut does not bottom out on the shaft when tightening the hub nut, the hub moves in quite a bit under the nut load as it locks in place which is why I had a hub come loose.

cheers
Rohan
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PostPost by: curly type 26 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:51 am

Just had a re-read of my fitting instructions & a lot more involved. Lap shaft to hub torque 160lbsft drive 100metres not miles! re torque 160. drive 200metres retorque 160. Drive one lap gently so one can assume 1 mile-ish retorque 160. now 3 laps retorque 160. now 10 laps retorque 160 (POUNDS FEET NOT NEWTS UNLESS EQUIVELENT) Then check regularly till settles. Allways check that washers has not bottomed out on shaft. Oh! yes allways stop car before retorqueing nuts. :lol: Curly
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:14 pm

I agree with Rohan.
The Round Key is another Lotus anomaly, rather like the centering of knock on wheels with Pegs & Conical Spinners.
All of the driving & Braking forces should be transmitted via the well "Ground in" tapered Joint.
In a perfect World & both mating parts were machined perfectly the Grinding in would not be needed.
The trouble with grinding in, which is essentially a rotary motion, is that microscopic annular ridges can form on either component.
Those ridges can break down & subsequently provide some freedom of movement, hence the re-tightening procedure until the joint has finally settled. Sound Engineering practice!
Keys or Pins are essentially used as locators or positioners i.e. Front engine Pulley & Timing Marking.
They are not intended to take any form of drive forces.

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
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PostPost by: ecamiel » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:31 pm

I had the same problems. Now I assemble my rear hubs with Locktite yellow Bearing Mount. No more problems. It does require heat to remove.
In fact, every nut and bolt on the car has some grade of Locktite from blue thread sealer on up.

Eric 64 S1
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PostPost by: bcmc33 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:38 pm

I replaced the diff shafts and spindles with TTR 100 tonne parts as a piece of mind act before increasing the the engine power and torque.
The spindles and hubs were lapped for more than 30 minutes before I was satisfied with the finish. When cleaned-up and assembled, I slipped the round dowel keys into place. My parts were bought in Feb 2008, so it seems that TTR has eliminated the key slot since that time.
However, I would hate to think that I had to rely on the round key for any sort of retention. The "key" is in the quality of lapping and making sure the torque-up process is maintained.

Having said all this, and coming back to the original gripe, TT is no different than this forum............two thirds of the posts are very useful, informative and relevant, and the remaining third is irrelevant crap. The conundrum is, of course, that my two thirds is not necessarily the same for other people.
Brian Clarke
(1972 Sprint 5 EFI)

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PostPost by: Elan45 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:02 pm

The taper and round key were obviously a problem for Lotus back in the day, since they went to a splined set-up on the Series 2 26R. I wonder why TTR didn't copy that fix. It seems to solve all these problems.

Roger
'67 Elan S3 SS DHC
'67 Elan FHC pre-airflow
'67 Elan S3 SE upgrade to 26R by Original owner
'58 Eleven S2 (ex-works)
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'70 Elan +2S RHD
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:05 pm

bcmc33 wrote:I replaced the diff shafts and spindles with TTR 100 tonne parts as a piece of mind act before increasing the the engine power and torque.
The spindles and hubs were lapped for more than 30 minutes before I was satisfied with the finish. When cleaned-up and assembled, I slipped the round dowel keys into place. My parts were bought in Feb 2008, so it seems that TTR has eliminated the key slot since that time.
However, I would hate to think that I had to rely on the round key for any sort of retention. The "key" is in the quality of lapping and making sure the torque-up process is maintained.

Having said all this, and coming back to the original gripe, TT is no different than this forum............two thirds of the posts are very useful, informative and relevant, and the remaining third is irrelevant crap. The conundrum is, of course, that my two thirds is not necessarily the same for other people.


I'm glad that you have recognised the value of my contributions. :twisted:
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