Ethanol and fuel additives

[William2]

From what I have read Ethanol in petrol can attack rubber and other seal materials in carburettors and fuel lines, etc. It can also clog up jets over time especially if fresh fuel is not added to the tank fairly frequently. My question is whether there are any fuel additives on the market that help eliminate ethanol problems. Has anyone experienced problems long term?

[rgh0]

Ethanol can attack some rubbers. Modern fuel hoses and other components in contact with fuel with ethanol are formulated to be ethanol resistant but older rubber components and low quality after market replacement components for older cars can soften and swell.

Ethanol is not a direct contributor to carb and jet fouling itself as it is a relatively stable component. However due to its higher octane rating and lower vapor pressure it leads to other changes in fuel formulating and blending that may result in increased gum formation and fouling dependent on the blending practices of the individual refineries making the fuel and the sources of the various components

Most problems blamed on ethanol do not affect modern fuel injected cars as their injection systems adjust to the change in fuel density and heat energy value that comes from the ethanol blends and fuel injection is much less sensitive to fuel vapor pressure changes. Carburetor cars are sensitive to vapor pressure changes in fuel and do not have the same automatic ability to compensate for the changes in fuel density and heat energy value parameters introduced by ethanol blends.

It would be very hard to compensate via an additive for the changes introduced by ethanol fuels. The best way would be to try to buy your fuel from a single refinery and retailer and get you car dyno tuned to suit that particular fuel.

cheers
Rohan

[SENC]

I think the bigger issue with ethanol is that it absorbs water from the atmosphere, significantly more than nonethanol fuel. This may not be an issue in a daily driver, but can be a big problem in vehicles not driven regularly enough to use up the gas in 30 days or so. If ethanol gas sits much longer than that (environment, particularly humidity, impacts how long) it can separate into water and gas - with resulting rust and debris in the tank, and the downstream issues those can cause for carbs, engines, lines, etc. Additives can help slow down phase separation and lengthen ethanol gas life.

I dont mind ethanol fuel in newer cars that are driven regularly (10% - I'm not comfortable with higher ethanol because the water issue becomes bigger and no engine likes water), but try to avoid it in older cars, small engines, and my boat - and if I have no choice I always use an additive and try not to put in more fuel than I can use in a month.

[prezoom]

I am beginning to wonder just how bad ethanol blended fuel really is. Have always been lead to believe that it is the Kryptonite of fuels, dissolving everything in site, in a matter of minutes.

But, what I have experienced is, the stuff isn't as bad as all those "old wives tales" would have you believe. Because I cannot resist picking up stray puppies (read neat old cars), I currently have a garage full of projects, and that keeps me from enjoying the ones that are running, as I get totally engrossed in getting the strays up to speed.

Saturday, I fired up the Sabra GT to take to a local car show. It had not been driven in several months, yet with a couple of shots of Easy Start, it fired ring up and ran just fine on the old fuel. However, if I let the S2 sit for that length of time, it will start and run, but is not happy until I fill the tank with fresh fuel.

All my running cars have lined fuel tanks to prevent any rusting. These linings seem to tolerate the ethanol, without degradation. Any rubber used in the fuel system has been replaced with modern ethanol resistant material. No non-anodized aluminum is used in the fuel system, other than the carbs themselves. Where the fuel evaporates so quickly, I don't think it hangs around to do much damage. The S2 has been this way since I purchased it in 2006. The Sabra since the restoration was finished in 2012, also has not had issues. The 1965 Ford Falcon Ranchero, though undergoing further refinement, ran well on old fuel as well. Going newer, my Dodge 3500 V10 will run on almost anything, even though it no longer gets driven for months at a time, and it passes the Republik of Kalifornia smog test, cleaner than the Lexus or Infinity.

I think, if you take simple precautions when preparing old cars, ethanol blended fuels will not have much effect on our cherished rides.

[Maulden7]

In the UK ethanol is not currently added to any super unleaded pump fuel EXCEPT the Tesco own brand (according to the Federation Of British Historic Car Clubs - FBHVC)

For all standard unleaded pump fuel ethanol is added currently at a level of 5%, & testing by the FBHVC indicates that this does not cause any problems to "old" cars or their fuel systems.

On mainland Europe unleaded fuel generally contains ethanol at a level of 10%, & these pumps are clearly marked E10. I don't think that any long term testing has been done for the 10% level.

There are a couple of additives approved by the FBHVC to combat the effects of ethanol, of which Millers VSP Power Plus is one. I have used this on trips to France & Belgium in my Elan (this is also a lead substitute & octane improver additive)

[BobP]

I live in the UK and I have a particular interest in (hate of) ethanol in fuel as I fly a home built aircraft with a fuel tank that sits above my lap. The tank is glued together with epoxy fibreglass and epoxy dissolves in ethanol! I run the aircraft on automotive petrol as the two stroke engine is prone to failure if run using lead loaded Avgas. I always test the fuel to make sure it is ethanol free. I've tested most of the major UK brands and the only UK fuel I have found that is ethanol free is BP Ultimate (BP regular has ethanol).

As well as dissolving rubber and epoxy, ethanol does attract water and if this mixture precipitates out (eg in the carb float bowl if the plane/car is left parked up for months on end)) it is prone to causing severe corrosion. So both plane and car are run exclusivley on BP Ultimate.

BobP
Lotus Elan S4

[rgh0]

......I run the aircraft on automotive petrol as the two stroke engine is prone to failure if run using lead loaded Avgas......
BobP
Lotus Elan S4

I presume your using a Rotax engine ? What is the failure mode that Avgas introduces? The stability and consistency of Avgas makes it really good for reliability critical uses especially with long potential fuel storage periods and I had not heard about issues that two strokes have with Avgas as a fuel

Ethanol in fuel picks up any water in tanks and pipes in the supply chain from refineries through depots and distribution systems to petrol station tanks to your fuel tank and then carries in into the engine. That can cause corrosion and operational problems along the way due the extra water in the fuel compared to non ethanol fuels especially in the end using engine where the water can concentrate in things like float bowls when the fuel evaporates during a period of non use. This typically is a more major problem when ethanol is first introduced in fuel but once the ethanol clears out the water in the bottom of all the tanks and pipes along the supply then there is less problem

cheers
Rohan

[RichardHawkins]

Gentlemen,

I am no chemist, but I thought water was soluble in ethanol. Would the ethanol thereby keep the water from separating from the fuel?

Richard Hawkins

[mbell]

Interesting thread.

Currently trying to tune my car, having some stumble during transition.I pulled the tanks and had it steamed and sealed in the beginning of the year before fitting new DCOE with Hyper jets. Currently have H20 which are roughly 50F8/9 equivalent and should be the correct ones for my Standard Big Valve engine. However I am getting lean stumble during transition (~2.5k- 3.0k) no matter how I adjust the hyper jets.

I running "premium" fuel here that I expect is around 10% ethanol. So suspecting that I need to go up a jet size because of the modern fuels. The fuel in my car is at least month old that makes me wonder if any of the stumble is caused/worsened by older fuel. I doubt it that much of an issue and i just need to get new jets but interested to here if other people's experience.

[rgh0]

Yes Ethanol in gasolinel increases the water solubility in an gasoline / ethanol mix substantially. The problems occur as this ethanol / water / gasoline mix is more corrosive in its own right and because water can separate out again in locations and overtime where the gasoline and ethanol components may vaporise to become even more corrosive

cheers
Rohan

[nomad]

Well I haven't been in a good old ethanol discussion for some time so just had to jump in! I'm a midwest corn farmer and have been using ethanol blended fuel in everything, including a variety of British cars, for around 30 years now. Pre ethanol we would have to run a few cans of a product called 'Heet' through our tanks every fall. The purpose of this stuff [which was just alcohol] was to clear the water out of our fuel lines to prevent gas line freeze up on a cold winter day. Since ethanol blended fuel that is no longer necessary since the alcohol picks up any water in the system and runs it through the engine.
The fact is that ethanol blended fuel cleans the water OUT of the system. Greatly reducing rust problems. If you live in a high humidity climate I suppose you can run into problems from fuel separation caused by an overload of water which will make the alcohol separate from the gasoline. Either that or your supplier isn't doing a good job of keeping water out when you buy it. As to condensation problems, I always store my vehicles with the tank clear full to reduce any chance of condensation to a minimum.
Problems???
Yes , Iv'e had some old hoses turn to mush but they were old enough that that may have happened anyway.
[2] I have a car that is prone to vapor lock and alcohol evaporates easier than gasoline so the pure stuff is all that car gets.
[3] Fuel mileage isn't quite as good since there is not quite the energy in alcohol as gasoline. In these parts the selling price pretty well compensates for that.

That's my .02
Kurt [corn alcohol producer]

[SENC]

Here is a good piece from Moss Motors on the topic.

The Ethanol Issue

By Moss Technical Services

Gasoline containing ethanol has become the new standard for fuel, and it presents a new set of challenges and work for classic car owners. You?ve got to be vigilant now to ensure a good running engine and prevent damage to your cherished car.

What?s the problem, you ask?

Ethanol, made from corn or grain, is added to gasoline to oxygenate it, replacing the older additive, MTBE. Names for gasoline mixed with ethanol include E10, gasohol, corn fuel, alcohol fuel, and reformulated or renewable fuel.

The key problem is that ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere. In fact, fuel with 10 percent ethanol absorbs up to 50 times more water than standard gasoline. Older gas tanks found in many classic cars vent to the atmosphere, increasing the likelihood that moisture will be absorbed into the gas tank at a rapid pace.

The end result of water in the fuel is phase separation. The fuel separates into two distinct layers: a thick layer of gasoline mixed with a little ethanol on top, and a thinner layer on the bottom consisting of water mixed with most of the ethanol. And it doesn?t take much water for this to happen?phase separation occurs in a gallon of 10 percent ethanol blend with just 3.8 teaspoons of water.

Fuel Phase Separation Problems

What happens to your car and it?s performance when water causes fuel phase separation?

Reduced fuel longevity: A gasoline/ethanol blend absorbs water until it triggers phase separation. The blend has a 90-day product life in a closed tank, but lasts just 30 to 45 days in a vented tank often found in classic cars. With 10 percent ethanol blends, owners are supposed to replace the fuel in vented tanks about once a month by driving or draining, taking into consideration the humidity in the atmosphere and temperatures.

Lower fuel octane: The ethanol in a gasoline blend provides some of the octane rating. When phase separation occurs, the octane rating of the remaining fuel can drop by as much as three points.

Poor engine performance:The fuel pump could easily pick up a slug of the water/ethanol slurry at the bottom of the tank, interrupting the flow of gas to the engine. This will cause the engine to miss, run rough and possibly stall altogether.

Corrosion and rust: Water in the bottom of the fuel tank and inside the fuel lines will cause corrosion and rust, and the solvent properties of the ethanol will loosen that up, along with bits of sediment and deposits. The resulting debris floating in the fuel could clog fuel filters, fuel lines and carburetor float valves.

Specific Parts Affected by Ethanol

Fuel tank: Ethanol could dislodge sediment and deposits in older gas tanks and fuel lines. Loose debris in the fuel could clog the fuel filter, or cause engine flooding if the carburetor float valve sticks.

Fuel pump: Rubber diaphragms inside the fuel pump may have problems with ethanol exposure.

Carburetor float valve: Float valve needles on early cars were brass, and these were replaced with plastic needles or brass needles with Viton (a specific type of rubber) tips. Ethanol can cause the plastic needles to swell up and stick either open or shut, which causes either massive flooding or starves the carburetor for fuel. Some owners have resorted to shaving down the plastic needle to get it to ride smoothly and seat properly. Instead, you can install an all-brass needle and seat, or a Vitontipped needle if available for your car model, which are not affected by lower levels of ethanol.

Carburetor floats: The Zenith-Stromberg floats found specifically/ only in the TR4 and 4A made of foam covered with a skin may deteriorate when exposed to ethanol. Other plastic floats, like those used by SU, may also be affected.

Hoses: Ethanol could dry out or deteriorate rubber hoses.

Seals: Ethanol could shrink, swell or deteriorate seals, depending on the material.

Gaskets: Ethanol may deteriorate the rubber in rubber/cork composite gaskets. Fiber washers and gaskets are not affected.

Aluminum and aluminum alloy parts: Aluminum and alloys fare fine with 10 percent ethanol, but are damaged by 25 percent ethanol.

Avoiding Ethanol Problems

Run your engine on fresh fuel from a major supplier in a location with lots of traffic.

Add fuel stabilizers when you put gas in your car to lengthen the life span of the fuel.

Buy higher-octane gasoline to be certain your engine gets the minimum octane necessary for good performance.

Keep track of the dates you buy fuel, how much you bought, and how much is in the tank when left sitting for a period of time.

Keep a log book for reference.

If you have a closed tank, make sure it is truly closed. Listen for a hiss of air escaping when you take the gas cap off after driving.

Test your gas tank periodically to see if water is accumulating or phase separation has occurred.

Treat accordingly.

If you don?t have a fuel filter before the carburetor (many British cars only have a screen), consider installing one to catch loosened rust and sediments from the gas tank before it clogs engine components. Moss offers one with a glass bowl for at-a-glance inspection, yet it features a period-correct look (Fuel Pressure Regulator/ Filter #377-435). Check your fuel filter often.

Consider adding a second fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump to protect the fuel pump from damage from loose debris from the tank (Moss part #377-310).

Keep engine parts well lubricated to counteract the solvent effect of ethanol.

Regularly inspect all fuel system components, seals and connectors from the tank to the carburetor. Ensure there are no leaks and the system is in good shape.

Full or Empty?

Trying to decide whether you should keep your fuel tank completely full or near empty? The answer isn?t clear. It all depends on how you?re using your car, the humidity where you live, the type of tank found in your car, and your willingness to closely monitor the situation.

During the driving season:

Some British car owners keep very little fuel (treated with fuel stabilizer) in their tank, and when they take it out, they first stop at the gas station to put in about the amount of gas they think they will need. That way they are always running fresh gas, and they park it back in the garage with a small amount of treated fuel to minimize the amount of gas that could go bad and separate. But British fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate, so you could run the risk of running out of gas on the way to the gas station.

Other owners keep the tank completely full, which means the surface of the fuel exposed to the humidity in the atmosphere is restricted to just the diameter of the fuel filler neck rather than the larger surface area inside the tank. Of course absorption of water by the ethanol is affected by whether the tank is vented or not, and by the humidity at that time of year. But considering the short life span for ethanol/gasoline blends, you?ll have to add fuel stabilizers and drive the car enough to regularly burn up the gas so your whole tank of fuel doesn?t go bad.

During the winter:

Whether you?re storing your car over the winter or driving it every once in a while in cold temperatures, your strategy for your fuel tank may be different at this time of year. If you leave a vented tank full, even with fuel stabilizers, you?ll have phase separation and water in two months. That means draining the tank every two months to eliminate the bad fuel and harmful water. If you leave it until spring, you could have to deal with the effects of rust and also still have to drain the tank. If you?re lucky enough to have a closed tank, you may be able to get through the winter with fuel stabilizers, which gives the fuel a six-month life span. You could drive out of the garage come spring unscathed. To be sure, test the tank for the presence of water first, and emulsify or drain the tank contents if necessary. If you leave your tank near empty with just a bit of treated fuel in the bottom during the winter, you won?t have much ethanol to absorb water into the tank or much gas to go bad. But the steel walls of a near-empty fuel tank will condense with the shifting cold-warm temperatures, creating more water in the tank and potentially rusting the sidewalls, as well as the floor of the tank where the water accumulates. This condensation would happen in both vented and closed empty tanks.

Ethanol Solutions

1. Use a fuel stabilizer when you put gas in your British car.

Most of us don?t drive our classic cars on a daily basis, so the short gasoline/ethanol life of 30 to 45 days in a vented tank, or 90 days in a closed tank, is a problem. In order to extend the life of your car?s fuel and delay the phase separation that will eventually occur, you can add a fuel stabilizer to your tank every time you put fuel into it if you?re not sure you?ll use the gas within the product life span.

220-360 E-Xtend Ethanol Gasoline Treatment (8 oz.)

E-Xtend doubles the fuel?s life to about 60 days in a vented tank, and about 180 days in a closed tank. It also contains antioxidants and degumming agents to fight sludge and prevent resin/gum deposits in the fuel tank. As a result, the fuel filter stays cleaner longer and the engine runs better.

For fuel with 10 percent ethanol, the ratio is one ounce of E-Xtend for every six gallons of fuel, so one 8-ounce bottle will treat 48 gallons of fuel. The longneck bottle makes it easy to pour into the filler neck.

2. Test your tank periodically for water presence and phase separation.

When you?re not driving your car and putting fresh gas into the tank, or after the car has been sitting over the winter, you can test your tank to determine if water is present or if phase separation has occurred.

One test method is loosening the fuel tank?s drain plug and capturing a small sample of fuel from the bottom of the tank in a clear container for inspection. Since water collects at the bottom of the tank, you should be able to see the two layers if water is present?a pink layer of gasoline on the top, and a clear or white layer of water and ethanol on the bottom. It looks a lot like unmixed salad dressing. You can use a test kit on the drain sample if it appears mixed up.

If your tank construction allows a dipstick (a dowel or rod works well) to go from the filler neck all the way to the bottom of the tank, you can use a test kit for easier and more reliable results. (This test method won?t work on car models with a bent filler neck unless you can figure out a flexible dipstick that hits the tank bottom.)

220-362 Water Probe Indicator

Simply apply the Water Probe Indicator on the end of the dipstick; it turns red where there is water in the fuel tank. For example, if there?s a half-inch of water in the tank, the stick shows a half-inch of red.

3. Add an emulsifier to treat separated fuel layers.

If you find water in the tank and phase separation has occurred, you can add an emulsifier to the fuel to remix the gasoline, ethanol and water. (Note that if there?s an excessive amount of water, you may have to drain the contaminated fuel from the tank.)

220-355 E-Zorb Ethanol Gasoline Water Remover (16 oz.)

E-Zorb emulsifies the water/ethanol layer at the bottom of the gas tank created by fuel phase separation. The water and ethanol mixes back into the rest of the fuel in the tank. The water passes with the gasoline through the engine and is released as steam. The fuel regains the octane (up to three points) that was lost when most of the ethanol separated from the gasoline.

The ratio is one ounce of E-Zorb for 20 gallons of gasoline/ethanol. The one-pint (16 oz.) bottle will treat 320 gallons of fuel. You?ll have to agitate the fuel and emulsifier in the tank by rocking the car from side to side, and bouncing it up and down. Make sure your suspension can handle this!

Be sure to check out the Moss tech video on Dealing With Ethanol at mossmotors.com.

[nomad]

BTW, to get ethanol to blend with gasoline the alcohol has to be 200 proof completely anhydrous. When it is blended with gasoline it will absorb quite a bit of water. I don't remember exactly how much right now but when it becomes saturated the gasoline and alcohol water mix can separate. I believe this phenomena is what has so many people confused about blended gasoline.

One more problem with ethanol blended gasoline that I forgot to mention that was never a problem for me but has been for some. The mix will break loose all kinds of rust and gunk in the fuel system when you first start using it. Really cleans it out good and will require attention to fuel filters for a while.

Kurt.

[nomad]

SENC and i must have posted at about the same time...

I've read Moss Motors and others propaganda.

Did anyone notice that Moss Motors happens to sell you all the stuff necessary to protect you from ethanol blended gasoline!

Perhaps it's our climate here in the good ol midwest but I have stored cars with a full tank of 10% ethanol for 3 years and no snake oil additives and the car started and ran well enough to get to a station for a top up of new gas. After that it ran fine. Yes, a bunch had evaporated and the car ran poorly and smoked black till fuel was added.

Kurt.

[SENC]

But of course! What good is a solution without a problem, nomad!?!

Seriously, though, I do think climate/humidity is a big part of the issue, so it doesn't surprise me that we've had different experiences. Much like low sulfur diesel worries (I use Diesel Treat fairly religiously, too), ethanol gas will plague some and not others depending on a number of variables.