Opinion on well known lotus specialist service
19 posts
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Good afternoon,
Apologies for what may be a long post.
I was just seeking a little opinion really on a situation i find myself in with a well known marque specialist and my plus 2 elan.
I would rather not name the specialist, as the situation has not completely played out yet, and its only fair to let it do so and see how we end up in the end before passing judgement.
Around a year or so ago I had the dreaded worn out water pump seen to by said specialist, full engine out, rebuild etc. I made it clear to please do all jobs deemed necessary whilst the engine was out. They also did a few other jobs, a service etc, and i was very pleased with the way the car drove afterwards. The bill was circa ?2.5k.
Almost immediately after getting home, I notice the car makes a strange grumbling noise when I depress the clutch. I send an email to the specialist to explain this, as i wasn't sure what it was, but wanted it noted considering they had just had the engine in and out and partly rebuilt. The specialist is not particularly close, so on their advice i decided to just see how it went. The noise gradually got worse. I have the dated email immediately after the work they did was completed.
I took the car to see the specialist 6 months or so later, sods law prevailed, the noise didn't occur when I was there, though it did constantly whilst driving there. Nothing vendor could do with no noise present. I left rather frustrated.
Fast forward to now, I took the car in to the same vendor to have an electric fan conversion, and to have the noise once again investigated. Vendor hears noise, says probably the needle bearing on the crankshaft or the clutch release bearing. Says engine out job etc etc. States 100% no responsibility with them, the clutch looked new, no need to change, the two events are totally unrelated. I state i brought the car in to them, they solved the issue, however the car left with a new problem that wasnt previously there. Vendor essentially isnt interested in this.
Vendor says will take around16 hour of labour, maybe more.
I express im not overly happy with the situation and invite them make a gesture of good will, as i would rather not fall out with them. They repeat no responsibility, best they can do is promise it wont be more than 16 hours labour. I am rather annoyed but in order to avoid confrontation ask if they will at least fit the fan within this labour charge. They agree. I continue to express that im not happy with the outcome, and hope for said gesture of good will.
I get a call today, engine is out, both the bearing and clutch release and fork will be replaced to be safe. Fine.
However, the radiator will be more complicated than he thought, as he has to do the wiring also and i will now be charged extra labour for this. Once again, i question this, if its a miss judgement then I understand, but I think the vendor should then just absorb the extra labour. This will not be the case im told, I have to pay extra labour above the promised cap of 16 hours.
I guess my question is am I being unreasonable to be unhappy with this service and attitude?
Is 16 hours reasonable to take the engine out, change the bearing and clutch release and refit, bearing (boom boom) in mind the engine has relatively recently been in and out, by them, so should be fairly straight forward and not throw up too many issues.
Should the needle bearing or/and clutch release bearing be lubricated or greased when the engine is refitted? Could a bit of dirt have got onto the bearing etc?
I believe you can judge a company on the way it deals with issues, its not the problem i take issue with but the resolution. I would however like to make sure i am being reasonable too.
Many thanks in advance for peoples opinions
Apologies for what may be a long post.
I was just seeking a little opinion really on a situation i find myself in with a well known marque specialist and my plus 2 elan.
I would rather not name the specialist, as the situation has not completely played out yet, and its only fair to let it do so and see how we end up in the end before passing judgement.
Around a year or so ago I had the dreaded worn out water pump seen to by said specialist, full engine out, rebuild etc. I made it clear to please do all jobs deemed necessary whilst the engine was out. They also did a few other jobs, a service etc, and i was very pleased with the way the car drove afterwards. The bill was circa ?2.5k.
Almost immediately after getting home, I notice the car makes a strange grumbling noise when I depress the clutch. I send an email to the specialist to explain this, as i wasn't sure what it was, but wanted it noted considering they had just had the engine in and out and partly rebuilt. The specialist is not particularly close, so on their advice i decided to just see how it went. The noise gradually got worse. I have the dated email immediately after the work they did was completed.
I took the car to see the specialist 6 months or so later, sods law prevailed, the noise didn't occur when I was there, though it did constantly whilst driving there. Nothing vendor could do with no noise present. I left rather frustrated.
Fast forward to now, I took the car in to the same vendor to have an electric fan conversion, and to have the noise once again investigated. Vendor hears noise, says probably the needle bearing on the crankshaft or the clutch release bearing. Says engine out job etc etc. States 100% no responsibility with them, the clutch looked new, no need to change, the two events are totally unrelated. I state i brought the car in to them, they solved the issue, however the car left with a new problem that wasnt previously there. Vendor essentially isnt interested in this.
Vendor says will take around16 hour of labour, maybe more.
I express im not overly happy with the situation and invite them make a gesture of good will, as i would rather not fall out with them. They repeat no responsibility, best they can do is promise it wont be more than 16 hours labour. I am rather annoyed but in order to avoid confrontation ask if they will at least fit the fan within this labour charge. They agree. I continue to express that im not happy with the outcome, and hope for said gesture of good will.
I get a call today, engine is out, both the bearing and clutch release and fork will be replaced to be safe. Fine.
However, the radiator will be more complicated than he thought, as he has to do the wiring also and i will now be charged extra labour for this. Once again, i question this, if its a miss judgement then I understand, but I think the vendor should then just absorb the extra labour. This will not be the case im told, I have to pay extra labour above the promised cap of 16 hours.
I guess my question is am I being unreasonable to be unhappy with this service and attitude?
Is 16 hours reasonable to take the engine out, change the bearing and clutch release and refit, bearing (boom boom) in mind the engine has relatively recently been in and out, by them, so should be fairly straight forward and not throw up too many issues.
Should the needle bearing or/and clutch release bearing be lubricated or greased when the engine is refitted? Could a bit of dirt have got onto the bearing etc?
I believe you can judge a company on the way it deals with issues, its not the problem i take issue with but the resolution. I would however like to make sure i am being reasonable too.
Many thanks in advance for peoples opinions
- gibbon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 16 Jan 2015
A totally unhelpful reply but....
Get yourself some tools, a few of THE books, and do it yourself!
There are very few 'specialists' about these days.
Those that are about employ people who weren't there in the day....
Exceptions of course.
Of course things go 'tits' when they are disturbed.
Get yourself some tools, a few of THE books, and do it yourself!
There are very few 'specialists' about these days.
Those that are about employ people who weren't there in the day....
Exceptions of course.
Of course things go 'tits' when they are disturbed.
Roy
'65 S2
'65 S2
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elj221c - Fourth Gear
- Posts: 722
- Joined: 12 Sep 2003
...................... i guess i must call myself a white collar mechanic and specilaistb B U T if somebody would pay big ???? to take the engine out, i reckon i could get close to 2 hours, 1 hour (with a cup of tea!!) to change the bearings and fork, three hours back in with liquids etc.. INCL. tea! ----- i know, motors tv (ef) would have to pay a grand ----- show this to them, the lotus garage !! AND i consider myself to be a specialist!! greetings from switzerland where this couldnt happen! sandy PS if nobody disagrees with the above: YOU GOT HIM BY THE BALLS!!!!!!!
- el-saturn
- Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 1374
- Joined: 27 Jun 2012
fast forward to now, I took the car in to the same vendor to have an electric fan conversion, and to have the noise once again investigated. Vendor hears noise, says probably the needle bearing on the crankshaft or the clutch release bearing. Says engine out job etc etc. States 100% no responsibility with them, the clutch looked new, no need to change, the two events are totally unrelated. I state i brought the car in to them, they solved the issue, however the car left with a new problem that wasnt previously there
Having been on the other end of the stick back in the day when these vehicles were a lot newer than now I would say that the above to me is perfectly reasonable, Lotuses and 70's Ford mechanicals are unreliable beasts and its very probably that after doing any work that something else will fail in short order, it may be that he did something wrong, he may have damaged the bearing when mating the engine and gearbox but you will never know and even if he is aware of it he is unlikely to admit it.
I can think of 2 similar instances off the top of my head but there were many more.
Did a decoke on a MkII Escort, recut valve seats, couple of replaced exhaust valves, it was wheezing on 2/3 cylinders when it came in and left with full power, on the way home the radiator matrix sprung a leak, it was weak and corroded and had not had to cope with the heat output of the full engine power for many a year, it was the next weakest link, now I could not say this until I had had a good look, perhaps I had left a hose clamp loose or something but it was just the next thing to go, the clutch could have failed in a similar manner.
Number 2, Irate Customer phones me up to complain that I serviced his daughters car and now he learns that she is pregnant, what am I going to do about it?
Having been on the other end of the stick back in the day when these vehicles were a lot newer than now I would say that the above to me is perfectly reasonable, Lotuses and 70's Ford mechanicals are unreliable beasts and its very probably that after doing any work that something else will fail in short order, it may be that he did something wrong, he may have damaged the bearing when mating the engine and gearbox but you will never know and even if he is aware of it he is unlikely to admit it.
I can think of 2 similar instances off the top of my head but there were many more.
Did a decoke on a MkII Escort, recut valve seats, couple of replaced exhaust valves, it was wheezing on 2/3 cylinders when it came in and left with full power, on the way home the radiator matrix sprung a leak, it was weak and corroded and had not had to cope with the heat output of the full engine power for many a year, it was the next weakest link, now I could not say this until I had had a good look, perhaps I had left a hose clamp loose or something but it was just the next thing to go, the clutch could have failed in a similar manner.
Number 2, Irate Customer phones me up to complain that I serviced his daughters car and now he learns that she is pregnant, what am I going to do about it?
- Chancer
- Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 20 Mar 2012
I think it's really petty of them to charge extra for the wiring. I mean...how much work is required to wire a fan?
If they can't absorb that small part of the work into their 16 hours, I think you have no option but to name and shame.
Really sorry to read of your woes and hope you at least end up, back on the road.
Kev.
If they can't absorb that small part of the work into their 16 hours, I think you have no option but to name and shame.
Really sorry to read of your woes and hope you at least end up, back on the road.
Kev.
- KevJ+2
- Fourth Gear
- Posts: 795
- Joined: 23 Aug 2013
elanfan1 wrote:Vince? Or am I way off?
Mile off sunshine. Nowt to do with me. Not this one!
However I would say that 16 hrs (2 full work days) is excessive for a someone allegedly used to the job. Especially as it all must be straightforward.
I have just honked Toad's engine / box out with the help of No2 son. He has zero previous experience and they were out by early afternoon. And that's in a cramped suburban garage.
As to commenting on a specific specialist - I wouldn't be so bold!
- vincereynard
- Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 1240
- Joined: 12 Jan 2015
Hi,
He is probably rounding up the hours. Can be a ball ache, exhaust manifold for instance...
I agree with the post above, these are old cars and things go wrong, even when stood still....
Similarly, there are some excellent posts on this forum of how to do most things and diagnose most problems, however there are some that stand up to no scrutiny at.
Sod's law.....
He is probably rounding up the hours. Can be a ball ache, exhaust manifold for instance...
I agree with the post above, these are old cars and things go wrong, even when stood still....
Similarly, there are some excellent posts on this forum of how to do most things and diagnose most problems, however there are some that stand up to no scrutiny at.
Sod's law.....
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mark030358 - Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: 29 May 2004
You have my sympathy but not my enthusiastic support for a contest which could end up in court (which no lawyer would take on a no win no fee basis since no costs are likely to be recoverable).
It will be impossible to establish that the bearing failure(s) was/were consequential upon the work done rather than merely coincidental.
The wiring charge may properly be regarded as opportunistic profiteering (particularly since the "capped" hourage was generous to them) but the principle of the making of a charge may well be justified.
If they remain obdurate, I would demand a fully-itemised bill, pay up and seek another garagiste (preferably identifying them here so any other member either avoids them or is fully on guard).
Gordon
It will be impossible to establish that the bearing failure(s) was/were consequential upon the work done rather than merely coincidental.
The wiring charge may properly be regarded as opportunistic profiteering (particularly since the "capped" hourage was generous to them) but the principle of the making of a charge may well be justified.
If they remain obdurate, I would demand a fully-itemised bill, pay up and seek another garagiste (preferably identifying them here so any other member either avoids them or is fully on guard).
Gordon
- elated
- Second Gear
- Posts: 100
- Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Hmm, I have sympathy for both parties here; the OP because there's another bill looming and the specialist because I think on the basis of what's been written they're getting a rough ride. So, flame coat on, let's put ourselves in the specialist's position......
Customer comes in for a water pump and a blank cheque to do anything else you can find at the time. Would you see if you could add a clutch to the bill ? Of course you would. Even if I were doing my own work I'd look to see if anything else needed doing at the same time. So I think we can accept that if nothing else they gave it a cursory glance.
They presumably road test the car after the pump replacement, if for no other reason than they don't want the OP breaking down on the way back home. No faults noted. Customer collects car, drives off happy.
Some days/weeks later the OP calls about a new noise he's hearing. Specialist probably thinks "gearbox/clutch/spigot bearing" and as it wasn't present when they had the car, both parties agree to see if it worsens.
6 months later OP turns up with his car for more work but can't demonstrate the noise. Specialist can't hear anything either. OP understandably frustrated but both agree nothing can be done.
FF now, car returns for new work and now both parties hear the noise. Another big bill and the OP wants the specialist to chip in. But why should he ?
OP took car away initially and all was well. OP reports a fault and presumably had the option to return the car immediately but agreed to see if it worsened. OP drives for at least 6 months before returning for more work and both parties agree the problem wasn't there at that point. Now it's there and you expect me to accept responsibility for it ? Well I wouldn't so I can see where the other guy is coming from.
You have my sympathy because you've had bad luck with the car but frankly I can't see how the specialist is at fault here. Should he have found it ? maybe, but then again you couldn't demonstrate it after 6 months driving about so he's got a case.
Accepting you pay the bill, is 16 hours reasonable ? Don't know. It generally takes me a day to get an engine out but I'm a DIY guy. Should he absorb the fan conversion labour ? I would, but then again why should he because after all that is a new task and unrelated to the clutch work. It's goodwill on their part IMO.
Now they want more for wiring. How much more, an hour or two ? Maybe he needed to call in an auto electrician, maybe your original loom is in such poor condition that it needs additional repairs, I don't know so my jury is out on that one. I'd ask for details of why additional electrical work is needed and maybe that'll put your mind at rest ? If it's new wiring needed then I'd just accept it.
Again I'm sorry to sound so harsh and you do have my sympathies, but maybe it's just a case of bad luck all round.
Brian
Customer comes in for a water pump and a blank cheque to do anything else you can find at the time. Would you see if you could add a clutch to the bill ? Of course you would. Even if I were doing my own work I'd look to see if anything else needed doing at the same time. So I think we can accept that if nothing else they gave it a cursory glance.
They presumably road test the car after the pump replacement, if for no other reason than they don't want the OP breaking down on the way back home. No faults noted. Customer collects car, drives off happy.
Some days/weeks later the OP calls about a new noise he's hearing. Specialist probably thinks "gearbox/clutch/spigot bearing" and as it wasn't present when they had the car, both parties agree to see if it worsens.
6 months later OP turns up with his car for more work but can't demonstrate the noise. Specialist can't hear anything either. OP understandably frustrated but both agree nothing can be done.
FF now, car returns for new work and now both parties hear the noise. Another big bill and the OP wants the specialist to chip in. But why should he ?
OP took car away initially and all was well. OP reports a fault and presumably had the option to return the car immediately but agreed to see if it worsened. OP drives for at least 6 months before returning for more work and both parties agree the problem wasn't there at that point. Now it's there and you expect me to accept responsibility for it ? Well I wouldn't so I can see where the other guy is coming from.
You have my sympathy because you've had bad luck with the car but frankly I can't see how the specialist is at fault here. Should he have found it ? maybe, but then again you couldn't demonstrate it after 6 months driving about so he's got a case.
Accepting you pay the bill, is 16 hours reasonable ? Don't know. It generally takes me a day to get an engine out but I'm a DIY guy. Should he absorb the fan conversion labour ? I would, but then again why should he because after all that is a new task and unrelated to the clutch work. It's goodwill on their part IMO.
Now they want more for wiring. How much more, an hour or two ? Maybe he needed to call in an auto electrician, maybe your original loom is in such poor condition that it needs additional repairs, I don't know so my jury is out on that one. I'd ask for details of why additional electrical work is needed and maybe that'll put your mind at rest ? If it's new wiring needed then I'd just accept it.
Again I'm sorry to sound so harsh and you do have my sympathies, but maybe it's just a case of bad luck all round.
Brian
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UAB807F - Fourth Gear
- Posts: 725
- Joined: 20 Dec 2010
If the engine was out I would have changed the crank bearing and the clutch release bearing as a matter of course due to low cost of parts. If the clutch was fairly new why had the release bearing not been changed ? Think you would be on a sticky wicket trying to recover costs though and they "may" have been OK when the car went to them.
Ian
Ian
- elansprint
- Fourth Gear
- Posts: 525
- Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
Thank you for the do it yourself advice, I would, and have with other cars in the past, but at this junction of my life my time is quite valuable to me and i am better served putting my energy and time into my profession rather grazing my knuckles at the weekend in a shared underground car park. Realistically an engine out job is not possible for me at the moment.
I think its the quick succession of reporting the new noise, literally the next time a drove the car, and the lack of interest from the vendor that disappoints me. I guess this reaction has made me question slightly the service provided, and wonder should the bearings have been lubed / checked / changed originally. I am not looking for him to absorb all costs, i have said several times that a gesture of good will would be appreciated and this is the angle that i think is most fair to both parties, the truth is i would guess one will never know the true reason, and hence compromise is the solution for both parties. Vendor disagrees.
Capping the job at, what appears to be a rather generous 16 hours and then coming back and asking for more as he has miss judged the job irks me.
To me its a shame that something like this cant be resolved amicably.
Thank you for the do it yourself advice, I would, and have with other cars in the past, but at this junction of my life my time is quite valuable to me and i am better served putting my energy and time into my profession rather grazing my knuckles at the weekend in a shared underground car park. Realistically an engine out job is not possible for me at the moment.
I think its the quick succession of reporting the new noise, literally the next time a drove the car, and the lack of interest from the vendor that disappoints me. I guess this reaction has made me question slightly the service provided, and wonder should the bearings have been lubed / checked / changed originally. I am not looking for him to absorb all costs, i have said several times that a gesture of good will would be appreciated and this is the angle that i think is most fair to both parties, the truth is i would guess one will never know the true reason, and hence compromise is the solution for both parties. Vendor disagrees.
Capping the job at, what appears to be a rather generous 16 hours and then coming back and asking for more as he has miss judged the job irks me.
To me its a shame that something like this cant be resolved amicably.
- gibbon
- Second Gear
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 16 Jan 2015
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