Values increasing

[Elanintheforest]

I'd be very interested in the photos to go on the website! The car was certainly re-painted when in the Lotus collection. When one of the recent owners decided to sell it he had to put it in the paint oven for 3 days to shrink the micro blisters before the auction. Good old Lotus paintwork.
Mark

[Wickey]

Sorry Mark I had nipped into the loft to see if could find some old history/photos so have edited my last post while you were replying............at my age I have lots of boxes I will need to go through. Maybe I need to research if I ended up in the same cell as Bruce at one time But that is another story

You refer to micro blistering and with boats and fibreglass cars, generally with fibreglass it is osmosis, however in the 80's we were introduced to a new paint system eventually if IIRC nicknamed nakkalaquer where it self smoothed over imperfections,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the problem was it too microblistered so that really confirms the car was the subject of an 80's makeover......................................sadly it just cannot be rectified (other than a thinners wash and rub down) and otherwise it will just come back as it occurs between the primer and paint as soon as the car is in damp conditions.

I may stand corrected by any old hand paint specialist but again I have plenty of pictures showing the blistering on 80's tarted up metal bodied cars

[1owner69Elan]

This S3 vintage racer mod just sold at the Monterey Mecum auction for $26K. Perhaps worth at least that in parts/engine alone. A fresh Tony Ingram built twin cam probably on the order of $20K.

Indicates that, at least for this auction crowd, there is not a lot of interest in a resto-mod "26R"- like racer that doesn't really qualify for a lot of the vintage race car classes. Car also may not be particularly well suited for street use.

Thus, the "depressed" price?

[1owner69Elan]

Here is a link to the original S3 "racer" -

http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/180 ... 4-Cylinder

Interesting link to a video on the build.

Lot of car for $26K it would seem. Owner obviously did not recoup any where near the money/time put into the project.

[Grizzly]

You can still buy a good S2 Coupe or OTS E type 'driver' quality car for less than ?50k, and project cars start at less than ?10k. The E Type Plus 2 is a fair bit less than that.

I assume you mean LHD cars? we buy and restore E-type's nearly one after another (have four on the go right now), from my experience the genuine rhd project cars have almost dried up and prices are crazy even for basket cases, we could of course buy US Imports but as you say the values are dramatically reduced... We very recently bought a S1 4.2 Coupe (numbers matching) in the sort of condition you mentioned (replace all panels) for ?40k . We have just finished a V12 drop head which sold for ?130k that wasn't even numbers matching but very nice, we also just sold a GRP 308 we repainted for a customer at Christmas, he paid ?25k for it three years ago and it sold for ?162k (i think every one was a little shocked at that).

Of course top quality cars go for the top money but you can only compare concour cars that have actually sold (not dreamers who have no chance) as there are allot of badly rebuild cars that look good at a glance, so top money Elan is what ?40k and a +2 high 20's? thats Mk1 Escort RS2000 money (not even Rs1800 etc) Scary how Elans have been left behind.

Prices are just Madness at the moment. As you say it's nice Elans haven't' gone mad so they can be used but at the same time allot buy them as Investments they can use and as such have been disappointing.

[Routen Chaplin Lotus]

You can chop of the roof of a DHC but that will still never make it into a Type 45, it will always be a modified 36. People used to not care much about that, but as the values have climbed, people have started paying more attention.

If a car is going to command "top money" the it has to be a proper car, so not a Sprint spec car, but a proper Sprint from the outset, not a DHC which started life as a coupe and so on. The unscrupulous may advertise a DHC Sprint when it is not the case so make sure you do your homework and checks. Best cars of course are those with matching engine / chassis numbers but of course the passing of time and the intrusion of rust means there may not be too many of these. Chassis replacements are common place but in the current climate a Spyder chassis will not be held in the same regards as far as value is concerned when compared to a Lotus replacement chassis. (Even though many would argue that a Spyder chassis is inherently a better product)

It is true that "Sprints" command the highest prices, If a claim occurs and the insurers discover that that "Sprint" is a bit of a mismatch then unless they have been advised as such previously there could be problems with a claim, at very least the amount to be paid out. The agreed value would have been given on the car being a genuine Sprint and not a clone of a Sprint. Its not only Lotus that have these problems a Mk1 VW Golf GTi has a value way above a GTi "spec" Mk1 Golf and so on.

Kim, Routen Chaplin Insurance

[holywood3645]

Thank gaud here in the US we have 'agreed value' insurance, 'we' can decide how much an insurance company will compensate for a loss. To say broadly one Elan is worth more than another is ridiculous (because of the paint scheme model type or gold strips on the side) These are arguments an insurance adjuster will use to under compensate for your loss. To insure a car (your pride and joy) for years and have it (stolen), then have some tosser stand in front of you and say it only worth X amount of $$ is an insult.

True value (I think) depends on the rareness, condition, history, provenance, matching number, documentation etc. But more importantly how much a buyer is willing to pay. To have some insurance %W8! tell my lotus is worth less than some fictional pistachio colored unicorn is a joke.
Again "Thank Gaud for Agreed value Insurance"
And it's not true "Sprints command the highest Prices"
"Rare cars with Provenance and real 26R's command the highest value"

James

[Wickey]

True value (I think) depends on the rareness, condition, history, provenance, matching number, documentation etc. But more importantly how much a buyer is willing to pay. To have some insurance %W8! tell my lotus is worth less than some fictional pistachio colored unicorn is a joke.
Again "Thank Gaud for Agreed value Insurance"
And it's not true "Sprints command the highest Prices"
"Rare cars with Provenance and real 26R's command the highest value"

James

Quite right James, however we do have agreed value too in the UK but that does not stop insurance companies looking for anyway to pay less.

Whether it is cars or homes etc my experience with insurance claims is there will usually be a reason for the company either not to pay in full or pay less............I lost my whole freezer contents (around ?300 worth) while on holiday due to my router power adaptor burning out and tripping the main circuit earth breaker switch. I have full contents insurance which included electrical items etc but was not aware that because it was deemed an 'accident damage' I was not covered in the small print for the loss of the fridge contents. Scary if it had burnt the whole house down

However I do find the process of getting an agreed valuation for car insurance just a bit of a 'money maker'....... you tell them what you feel it's worth, send in a few outside/interior photos and you will get your certificate stating something in the order of what your own opinion was despite the car may be a rust and oily one underneath with perhaps just OK mechanics.

One argument I had to deal with on a high performance car was arguing the wrong tyres were fitted and it had to be made clear that it is not illegal to fit say 110mph rated tyres when the manufacturer recommends 135mph especially when our legal speed limits are just over half that amount. It is just not allowed to drive faster than the tyre rating you have fitted

[holywood3645]

It's called "agreed value" for a reason. I think they would get there asses sued if they tried that here. When i think about what you say about tires... A lot of Elan owners cannot do not have correct speed rating in 13"s (in US). They are more common on older cars in UK and possibly better supported.
I also think they are more reasonable here.
Maybe some others can give input on agreed value on a claim.
I have had one small claim on my insurance and they paid out without any issue.

[Wickey]

Again I agree with what you say and the 'large print' on the insurance companies details will usually say in the event of a total loss claim the agreed value will be paid in full.....

I quote this paragraph from one of our UK leading classic car insurance companies

''In the event of a total loss claim, the amount paid will be the sum agreed on the current agreed valuation certificate less any policy excess. In the event that the vehicles condition has been inaccurately described either intentionally or unintentionally to seriously affect its value, the Valuation Officer at Lancaster can arrange for a new valuation at no extra cost.''

Now this is written in the large print and is the second paragraph on their website but it is the second sentence in the paragraph that would draw my attention in understanding what actually is being implied.

Good idea though to see how others have got on with agreed value claims and remind everyone to think how prices have gone up lately to checkout any agreed value policies are updated as again insurers have many ways to try to reduce payouts and one common one on home contents is to claim items were under insured by X% so only pay out proprortionately on any claim.

[Chancer]

My agreed value vehicle was stolen, I was a little surprised that the insurers sent a loss adjustor to go over the claim so I was prepared with copies of adverts of similar specced vehicles for sale.

It started off as a bit of a negotiation with the guy saying my vehicle was not worth the values I was showing him (in my mind it was) and after a while I said "you do realise I have an agreed value insurance?"

He was taken aback as he did not know and said to me that they should not have sent him, I would be paid in full less my excess no arguments, there was no more for him to do, he was happy that he had been paid to do effectively nothing and sorry for taking up my time.

They paid in full after the required period for the Police to declare that the vehicle was unlikely to be found.

[Routen Chaplin Lotus]

Again I agree with what you say and the 'large print' on the insurance companies details will usually say in the event of a total loss claim the agreed value will be paid in full.....

I quote this paragraph from one of our UK leading classic car insurance companies

''In the event of a total loss claim, the amount paid will be the sum agreed on the current agreed valuation certificate less any policy excess. In the event that the vehicles condition has been inaccurately described either intentionally or unintentionally to seriously affect its value, the Valuation Officer at Lancaster can arrange for a new valuation at no extra cost.''

As an insurer of many classics including a bespoke Lotus scheme I have to say the valuation process by photo is flawed because a "selected" photo taken 12 feet away will not show crazing, an engine bay shot will not show rusted turrets in the chassis which is why, sometimes, a value may have to be reviewed following a claim.

What looks good in a photo might not look so good in the flesh with proper inspection. Lets take the engine bay shot, this is the photo that insurers place most store by as a scruffy engine bay might suggest mechanical shortcomings, lack of maintenance. Everyone takes a picture of the nice shiny bodywork but you can often tell more about a car by looking at the engine bay but even then, a pristine looking engine shot does not show that it's smoking badly, making a horrendous noise and overheats even when just ticking over. So, if this were known by the client and the value requested did not reflect the mechanical woes then would this be a situation where a discussion about the cars true value might need to take place.

Generally, insurers having accepted a policy on an agreed value policy pay on that basis and in truth there are very few claims that run into problems on this basis, the ones that do are normally where a car has been seriously over estimated/described. We have all had experience of that, a car is advertised, we go and look at it and it turns out to be a pile of poo but has been advertised as "extremely good condition"! Its a matter of opinion of course, "one mans ceiling is another mans floor" syndrome.

Car values continue to rise and so these arguments will continue, what makes a car desirable is an elusive quality, why are Veteran London to Brighton eligible cars worth ?100K +. They have no performance, little or no brakes, no handling abilities, no creature comforts but they have a following, rarity and quirkiness perhaps. Cars that faired well in competition do well which is largely why performance Escorts command high values and why there are many 1100L cars which are now GTs, Mexico's and RS spec. But they are not real Mexico's etc and should not be valued as such. There are Lotus Cortina's that did not start out as Lotus cars and there are more 26R Elans than the factory ever made. As I said before a DHC Sprint has a higher value than a "sprint spec" car that started out as a coupe"

I work in the classic insurance market and in the main insurers are good at dealing with claims, clients are good in the main at describing their cars accurately, however on both sides there is always a bad case here or there and unfortunately these are the cases that tend to get picked up and discussed. Rarely though do you get to hear both sides of the story.

Kim

[Wickey]

Again I agree with what you say and the 'large print' on the insurance companies details will usually say in the event of a total loss claim the agreed value will be paid in full.....

I quote this paragraph from one of our UK leading classic car insurance companies

''In the event of a total loss claim, the amount paid will be the sum agreed on the current agreed valuation certificate less any policy excess. In the event that the vehicles condition has been inaccurately described either intentionally or unintentionally to seriously affect its value, the Valuation Officer at Lancaster can arrange for a new valuation at no extra cost.''

As an insurer of many classics including a bespoke Lotus scheme I have to say the valuation process by photo is flawed because a "selected" photo taken 12 feet away will not show crazing, an engine bay shot will not show rusted turrets in the chassis which is why, sometimes, a value may have to be reviewed following a claim.


What looks good in a photo might not look so good in the flesh with proper inspection. Lets take the engine bay shot, this is the photo that insurers place most store by as a scruffy engine bay might suggest mechanical shortcomings, lack of maintenance. Everyone takes a picture of the nice shiny bodywork but you can often tell more about a car by looking at the engine bay but even then, a pristine looking engine shot does not show that it's smoking badly, making a horrendous noise and overheats even when just ticking over. So, if this were known by the client and the value requested did not reflect the mechanical woes then would this be a situation where a discussion about the cars true value might need to take place.

Generally, insurers having accepted a policy on an agreed value policy pay on that basis and in truth there are very few claims that run into problems on this basis, the ones that do are normally where a car has been seriously over estimated/described. We have all had experience of that, a car is advertised, we go and look at it and it turns out to be a pile of poo but has been advertised as "extremely good condition"! Its a matter of opinion of course, "one mans ceiling is another mans floor" syndrome.

Car values continue to rise and so these arguments will continue, what makes a car desirable is an elusive quality, why are Veteran London to Brighton eligible cars worth ?100K +. They have no performance, little or no brakes, no handling abilities, no creature comforts but they have a following, rarity and quirkiness perhaps. Cars that faired well in competition do well which is largely why performance Escorts command high values and why there are many 1100L cars which are now GTs, Mexico's and RS spec. But they are not real Mexico's etc and should not be valued as such. There are Lotus Cortina's that did not start out as Lotus cars and there are more 26R Elans than the factory ever made. As I said before a DHC Sprint has a higher value than a "sprint spec" car that started out as a coupe"

I work in the classic insurance market and in the main insurers are good at dealing with claims, clients are good in the main at describing their cars accurately, however on both sides there is always a bad case here or there and unfortunately these are the cases that tend to get picked up and discussed. Rarely though do you get to hear both sides of the story.

Kim

Very well put Kim.

I suppose when it is a 'total' loss ie stolen unrecovered it falls in favour of the insured owner as no way to really argue the case.