Reply to Rohan Hodges

[lotuselanman]

Gidday,
I agree with what you say except : # 1 : A 170 HP road useable engine is going to cost a lot of money and not be docile.
# 2 : A Zetec producing 170 HP is a very under stressed unit, calm and tranquil.
# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.
# 4 : A Zetec can be removed and replaced with the old TC returning the car to original ?
Each to there own, for me the Z is the way to go. Not that I am bias !!!!
See ya, Les.

[garyeanderson]

I think every one here has a very valid point. A twin cam making
good power (more than 150ish) is not an inexpensive way to make your
ride move but if its at hand it wont break the bank by itself. There
is really nothing inexpensive about rebuilding an Elan other that
most of the previous owners that have left them for dead over the
years. Tatty Elans's show up in the U.S. for $1.5k to $3k at times
The parts alone to referb an Elan chassis to near new condition will
run another $2k to $5k depending on if you need a chassis. If you can
do most of the engine work yourself it does not have to cost a $20k
for a respectable twin cam to put out some serious power. Yes, they
will not be as pleasent to drive as a modern larger displacement
engine but it sure looks at home when you lift the bonnet. In my
opinion, the money/time invested in a engine swap will never be
recovered unless you plan on owning the Elan until your gone. If you
want big power for a street driven Elan, start with a big twin cam.
1700cc is the minimum, 1760cc is better and 2 liter is possible with
a bunch of money.

Gary Anderson

--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <Les.Mellor@b...>
wrote:

[Arno Church]

# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.

Not quite so easy, Ive replaced the Xflow in my Seven with a Zetec and it is more complicated`than a mere bolt in. The only thing that is bolt on is the bellhousing.
Arno

[rgh0]

--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <Les.Mellor@b...>
wrote:


Yes it will not be cheap at about A$12000 if you are starting with a
complete standard engine as a base and you do all the disassembly and
assembly yourself. But it will be a very tractable and useable
engine. "Docile" is a 6.5 comp ratio VW flat four aircooled not
sports car engine in my vocabulary.



Certainly understressed and to some degree that is why I would not
use it in my lotus ( purely personal opinion here) as I like a engine
that wants to rev and a standard Zetec needs some work to make that
happen properly. Part of the Elan charm and character is it is a
stressed car in every dimension and that is what generates its
performance.



I agree it is an easily reversible option but when you open the
bonnet (hood) it does not "look" original, again just a personal
opinion. But if Colin was building a plus 2 today he would probably
put a Zetec or its Toyota equivalent in it so who am I to complain.



Agree with you Les and for your plus 2, you go for the Zetec.

Regards
Rohan

[lotuselanman]

Giday Rohan,
Guess we are on the same track, I too enjoy a stressed engine but then it is good for the 'Boss' to be able to use it as required and enjoy the car.
My view is also heavily bias towards result for dollars spent. As you say $12,000 for a 170 HP TC, I can build a Zetec with much more than 170HP for 25% of the TC cost including the purchase cost of the Z. I enjoy that too.
Another point to be considered is the satisfaction I derive from such a challenge, for the Z I have made a inlet manifold for 45 Webers, a water rail, engine mounts, turned a flywheel from billet, fitted bigger inlet valves,had cams ground to suit using hydraulic lifters, adapted a belt drive dizzy and a bunch of bananas to match. But having made all those parts I know the Dollars spent on a Z will give a far better result than big bucks spent on a TC. Each to the own, as long as they agree with me !!
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: Rohan Hodges
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Reply to Rohan Hodges



--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <Les.Mellor@b...>
wrote:


Yes it will not be cheap at about A$12000 if you are starting with a
complete standard engine as a base and you do all the disassembly and
assembly yourself. But it will be a very tractable and useable
engine. "Docile" is a 6.5 comp ratio VW flat four aircooled not
sports car engine in my vocabulary.



Certainly understressed and to some degree that is why I would not
use it in my lotus ( purely personal opinion here) as I like a engine
that wants to rev and a standard Zetec needs some work to make that
happen properly. Part of the Elan charm and character is it is a
stressed car in every dimension and that is what generates its
performance.



I agree it is an easily reversible option but when you open the
bonnet (hood) it does not "look" original, again just a personal
opinion. But if Colin was building a plus 2 today he would probably
put a Zetec or its Toyota equivalent in it so who am I to complain.



Agree with you Les and for your plus 2, you go for the Zetec.

Regards
Rohan
















------------------------------------------------------------------------------






***@***.***

[Rob_LaMoreaux]

Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I can do
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. If I
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.

[lotuselan2]

Rob
I've had my heart set on an Alfa GT (1600 or 1750) for many years. Can you
or your woman compare/contrast the GT Jr. to the Elan? Different but.....
Ken
'69 +2 with BDR

[richboyd]

At 07:55 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote:



I'm on my seventh Alfa. The closest Alfas to your desire were a Giulia 1600
and a Spyder 1750 (round-tailed, like the Duetto).
The four-door Giulia 1600 was by far the better of the two (I even like the
looks better, but that took some time). The performance of the Giulia will
be comparabe to the GT re: handling, acceleration and braking. I really
liked that car. The GT's body looks great, but is mechanically identical to
the Giulia. Same for the 1750 GTV and the 1750 Spyder; identical mechanicals.

The bigger engine of the 1750 was gained by lengthening the stroke. This
combined with the sluggish Spica fuel injection and a heavier flywheel
stole much of the free-reving charm of the slightly smaller 1600 engine.
Get a carbureted 1600 if you can. More responsive engine.

During all of the Alfa swapping years, I've owned my Elan. Nothing Alfa has
ever made comes close to the Elan for smile-on-your-face fun. Nothing. In
my many side-by-side comparisons, over 30+ years, the Elan always won by a
big margin.

In comparison, Alfas are heavy and clumsy in most all respects. I still
love Alfas and would not categorize them as clumsy without the comparison
to an Elan. I always communicate with my Alfas when I drive them (some
models more than others), just not as closely as with my Elan. I wouldn't
hesitate to buy an Elan over any Alfa if I wanted to have a thoroughly
enjoyable car to drive; one that involves you as the driver. I like them
both, just not equally.

Both Alfas and Elans are fun to work on, as well as drive. Alfa engines are
really nice works of art, as are the transmissions. Old-fashioned steering
boxes. Solid suspensions. Metal bodies that can (do) rust. Shifting can
require patience.

My two pence.

Rich Boyd

[lotuselanman]

----- Original Message -----
From: rob_lamoreaux
To: ***@***.*** ; 'Les Mellor' ; 'Rohan Hodges'
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Reply to Rohan Hodges


Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I cando
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. IfI
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.















------------------------------------------------------------------------------






***@***.***

[lotuselanman]

Gidday Rob,
Each to there own requirements.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: rob_lamoreaux
To: ***@***.*** ; 'Les Mellor' ; 'Rohan Hodges'
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Reply to Rohan Hodges


Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I cando
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. IfI
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.















------------------------------------------------------------------------------






***@***.***

[rgh0]

--- In ***@***.***, "rob_lamoreaux"
<Rob_LaMoreaux@a...> wrote:





Rob
A 150 hp type engine is certainly cheaper as you can stay with a
relatively standard ford crank and rods and pistons. Saves about
A$4000 compared to a steel bottom end capable of more than 7000 rpm
reliably.

You still need to spend a fair bit of money on a top end to truely
get the 150 hp especially out of a 1600 engine if you want to stay in
your autocross class.



If your going to spend the money on a new cam and valve train to go
to .410 lift and the porting to make it worthwhile then the cost to
go to about .45 lift is really the same and you will gain in both
torque and power. Above .45 it starts to get really hard to do as all
the tolerances and degrees of freedom close up on you and each build
is a real hand crafted exercise.


regards
Rohan

[billyt]

--- In ***@***.***, "lotus" <lotuselan2@c...> wrote:



lovely torquey engine and the guigaro designed body is nice but the
handling is s>>>>>>e& it rusts like there is no tomorrow its asmall
classic italian but it aint no LOTUS.[Non-text portions of this
message have been removed]

[Rob_LaMoreaux]

Danielle might be better at the comparison, since I've only drove the GTA
Jr. a few times, and their Spider only twice (touring laps of a road course
then an autocross the next day).

Here are my impressions:

1968 GTA Jr Stradale (street) with bigger 1750 engine replacing the original
1300 which is safely stored:
Torquiest engine,
best brakes,
long throw shifter, but at least it is fairly horizontal,
racing steering wheel is tiny, so effort is high
straight hand and leg driving position
2000lbs - aluminum bodied street version of a racer
Neutral handling

1969 Boattail Spider 1750 engine much like the GTAs
Tail heavy I took out cones on both sides of the autocross course
in the same corner
torquey engine
good brakes
long throw shifter that is so verticle I yanked the shift ball off
on all but one run
even more of the italian straight arm driving position
2200lbs

Elan with too long (300degree) duration cam and balanced bottom end
stromberg engine
hardest to launch clean - tends to bogg then pulls hard when the
carbs and cam catches up
easiest steering
worst brakes - needs either really soft pads or booster to really be
trustable in autocrosses
Hard pedal, but needs even harder effort to stop
best shifting and shortest distance for all controls
Very Neutral handling
best driving position
1600lbs - you notice the lower weight in the enthusiasm to change
direction of the car

When I get the Weber engine built up for the Elan with a shorter duration
high lift cam and the brakes sorted or boosted the Elan would be the nicest
to autocross by quite a large amount. The GTA brakes are more trustable
allowing you to go into corners deeper and the torquy engine get on cam
earlier allowing better times. On the street I get out of the Elan with a
bigger grin than either of the Alfas partly due to the nicer driving
position, partly due to the lightweight way she wants to dance, and partly
because she is mine.

At most autocrosses Danielle's dad in the GTA is about a second faster than
me in the Elan and a second or two faster than Danielle in the GTA. Of
course after 30+ years of autocrossing he's often faster than other people
in their car. I didn't get comfortable in the Spider, but was still 3rd in
class at the autocross behind Danielle (~0.5 second) and her dad (>1second).

We'd be happy to have an Alfa GT join the elan in the garage although we
were lusting after a Giulia Ti and a Montreal at the alfa convention last
summer since it has a nice back seat for her son and future kids, and
Danielle has wanted a Montreal for years. Those are a bit hard to find in
the US, so we will probably end up with a spider or GT.


Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.

[s2lola]

All,

Had a lovely early 80's Spider. Wonderful car, completely perfectly
maintained when I had bought it - probably the nicest older car I'd ever
owned, in terms of condition.

But:

"Old-fashioned steering boxes" - you got that right. Like parallel parking
a bulldozer

"Solid suspensions." - Yep. I especially liked the fabric travel limit
strap on the rear

"Shifting can require patience." - Only because the second gear syncrho was
made of some alloy that had the wear characteristics of a bar of soap.

"Heavy" - oh yeah. Unbelievably so.

I miss that car, even still.

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt


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[roadterror]

Any finned alloy sumps available for the TC engine? Alfa also noticably quieter running than the +2....