Lotus Elan

knock-off direction (rt. vs. left)

PostPost by: "Dick Buckingham, Jr » Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:56 am

I am a new owner of a series 3 FHC. The "Nader nuts" on the wheels on
the left hand side of the car (facing forward) have the "undo arrow"
pointing counter clockwise. Is this correct? I have heard that Elans
have the knock-offs turning the opposite direction from other British
cars, but I don't know what the direction is of "other cars" for
comparison. I realize that the hubs (both front and rear) could be
reversed right to left and that would make the nuts turn in the wrong
direction as to what they are supposed to be. Any help out there. Dick
"Dick Buckingham, Jr
 

PostPost by: summerinmaine » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:06 am

Dick,

My S2 has proper knock-offs, and on the left side the un-do arrow is
clockwise. Don't know why it would be any different for Nader Nutz,
so I'd check very carefully before driving the car. Are the ones on
the right side CCW?

Jim

--- In [email protected], "Dick Buckingham, Jr." <[email protected]> wrote:
I am a new owner of a series 3 FHC. The "Nader nuts" on the wheels on the left hand side of the car (facing forward) have the "undo arrow" pointing counter clockwise. Is this correct? I have heard that Elans have the knock-offs turning the opposite direction from other British cars, but I don't know what the direction is of "other cars" for comparison. I realize that the hubs (both front and rear) could be reversed right to left and that would make the nuts turn in the wrong direction as to what they are supposed to be. Any help out there.
Dick
Jim

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PostPost by: tvacc » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:08 am

As I recall.....

The nuts are supposed to tighten as you turn toward them the front of the
car....so ..(and it is diffiicult for me to see how you are oriented by your
"facing forward) but I think yours are wrong...

The ones on the left side...are reverse thread...so the arrow to loosen
should be clock wise looking at the nut..

Can anybody else confirm this out there...?

As this is REALLY important...I would like to get others confrmation...I
have been wrong before...so lets get a concenus before you are driving down
the road and your wheels beat you to the next signal...

Bill Rabel has my old Elan...and that was the last knock off car I
owned....Bill?

Tony V
http://www.lotusowners.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Buckingham, Jr. [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 8:56 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] knock-off direction (rt. vs. left)


I am a new owner of a series 3 FHC. The "Nader nuts" on the wheels on
the left hand side of the car (facing forward) have the "undo arrow"
pointing counter clockwise. Is this correct? I have heard that Elans
have the knock-offs turning the opposite direction from other British
cars, but I don't know what the direction is of "other cars" for
comparison. I realize that the hubs (both front and rear) could be
reversed right to left and that would make the nuts turn in the wrong
direction as to what they are supposed to be. Any help out there. Dick
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15
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PostPost by: elanplus2 » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:33 am

Hi All,

I agree with Tony V.

It was explained to me beautifully once by Miles Wilkins.

The nuts tighten up in the same direction as the wheel if the car was moving forwards.

Therefore, the nuts on the LHS tighten counter clockwise.
The nuts on the RHS tighten clockwise.

Get it wrong and they will come undone owing to a phonomemenon explained real well in the Hugh Haskell book "Colin Chapman - Lotus Engineering".

I have spinner son the plus 2 that have been drilled on the ears. Three ribs on the Gkn's have also been drilled, and I run a race wire from the spinner to the wheel to make sure they don't come off.

Ray




As I recall.....

The nuts are supposed to tighten as you turn toward them the front of the
car....so ..(and it is diffiicult for me to see how you are oriented by your
"facing forward) but I think yours are wrong...

The ones on the left side...are reverse thread...so the arrow to loosen
should be clock wise looking at the nut..

Can anybody else confirm this out there...?

As this is REALLY important...I would like to get others confrmation...I
have been wrong before...so lets get a concenus before you are driving down
the road and your wheels beat you to the next signal...

Bill Rabel has my old Elan...and that was the last knock off car I
owned....Bill?

Tony V


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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:04 am

--- In [email protected], "Edwards, Ray" <[email protected]> wrote:
Get it wrong and they will come undone owing to a phonomemenon
explained real well in the Hugh Haskell book "Colin Chapman - Lotus
Engineering".

In case anyone missed it, this was uploaded this some while back.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lotuselan/files/hubs%20and%20nuts.GIF>
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PostPost by: "Dick Buckingham, Jr » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:35 am

Hi, I tried to open this file and it won't let me saying that I am not a member of the group which I thought I was--I certainly am getting my 35 e-mails/day! Maybe it is that I wasn't a member when this file was
created. Could you possibly copy the key paragraphs and paste them in an e-mail to me <***@***.***> Thanks for your help. Dick

ardee_selby wrote:

--- In [email protected], "Edwards, Ray" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Get it wrong and they will come undone owing to a phonomemenon
> explained real well in the Hugh Haskell book "Colin Chapman - Lotus
> Engineering".

In case anyone missed it, this was uploaded this some while back.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lotuselan/files/hubs%20and%20nuts.GIF>







"Dick Buckingham, Jr
 

PostPost by: "kstrutt1" » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:15 am

The ones on my +2 are the right way around but I have still had the
rears come loose (as the rear takes torque in both directions I guess
the argument about thread direction scould be applied either way
around).
As the pegs and wheels were fine I have also wired them as Ray
describes (I looped the wire throught the spokes rather than drilling
the wheel though) they have not come loose since.


Kevin +2S130

--- In [email protected], "Edwards, Ray" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi All,

I agree with Tony V.

It was explained to me beautifully once by Miles Wilkins.

The nuts tighten up in the same direction as the wheel if the car
was moving forwards.


Therefore, the nuts on the LHS tighten counter clockwise.
The nuts on the RHS tighten clockwise.

Get it wrong and they will come undone owing to a phonomemenon
explained real well in the Hugh Haskell book "Colin Chapman - Lotus

Engineering".

I have spinner son the plus 2 that have been drilled on the ears.
Three ribs on the Gkn's have also been drilled, and I run a race wire

from the spinner to the wheel to make sure they don't come off.

Ray




As I recall.....

The nuts are supposed to tighten as you turn toward them the front
of the

car....so ..(and it is diffiicult for me to see how you are
oriented by your

"facing forward) but I think yours are wrong...

The ones on the left side...are reverse thread...so the arrow to
loosen

should be clock wise looking at the nut..

Can anybody else confirm this out there...?

As this is REALLY important...I would like to get others
confrmation...I

have been wrong before...so lets get a concenus before you are
driving down

the road and your wheels beat you to the next signal...

Bill Rabel has my old Elan...and that was the last knock off car I
owned....Bill?

Tony V



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The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

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"kstrutt1"
 

PostPost by: ardee_selby » Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:34 am

Dick,
I've opted to view all posts on the site, not e-mails, so I don't
have your e-mail address. If you contact me direct I'll send file as
an attachment. It has diagrams too! :-)

Cheers - Richard

--- In [email protected], "Dick Buckingham, Jr." <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi, I tried to open this file and it won't let me saying that I am
not a member of the group which I thought I was--I certainly am

getting my 35 e-mails/day! Maybe it is that I wasn't a member when
this file was
created. Could you possibly copy the key paragraphs and paste them
in an e-mail to me <[email protected]> Thanks for your help. Dick
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PostPost by: simonknee » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:06 pm

I disagree with Tony, I think the left-side of the car should be
counter-clockwise to undo.

The knocks-ons should tighten up in the opposite direction that the wheel
turns when in forward motion.
This applies to all cars with knock-ons.
When the power is applied to the rear axle the left hand shaft will turn
counter clockwise.
Thus a clockwise tightening nut will naturally try to get tighter!

But I may well be wrong (and the S3 is bolt-on)so please wait until there is
a majority of opinioin on the list.

From experience it is really quite scary when a knock-on knocks off!!!

Simon

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Buckingham, Jr. [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 01:56
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] knock-off direction (rt. vs. left)


I am a new owner of a series 3 FHC. The "Nader nuts" on the wheels on
the left hand side of the car (facing forward) have the "undo arrow"
pointing counter clockwise. Is this correct? I have heard that Elans
have the knock-offs turning the opposite direction from other British
cars, but I don't know what the direction is of "other cars" for
comparison. I realize that the hubs (both front and rear) could be
reversed right to left and that would make the nuts turn in the wrong
direction as to what they are supposed to be. Any help out there. Dick
Simon
'67 S3 FHC 36/7002
'69 +2 50/1370 (stolen '00)
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PostPost by: MikeC » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:31 pm

On Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:04:29 +0100 Simon Knee wrote:

I disagree with Tony, I think the left-side of the car should be
counter-clockwise to undo.

The knocks-ons should tighten up in the opposite direction that the wheel
turns when in forward motion.
This applies to all cars with knock-ons.

The argument for Elan knock-ons being opposite to the standard rudge
wire-wheel arrangement, is that the Rudge has a male wheel and female
nut, but the Lotus has female wheel and male nut. The joint between the
two is apparently equivalent to an epicyclic gear, which rotates
differently according to whether the inside or the outside is driven.
There's a neat practical demonstration of this, allegedly devised by
ACBC himself, in Hugh Haskell's book "Colin Chapman - Lotus
Engineering".


Mike
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PostPost by: guerrilla garage » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:12 pm

Hey thanks for the ref: to Chapman's demo with the roll tape. It's really cute, probably bogus engineering, but cute. The fact of the matter is in the real world if the knock offs are loose the wheel will fall off. It is traditional to use left hand threads on the left side of the car. My 62 Dodge did and my 63 Alfa still does. For the record my S2 Elan has left handed knock offs on the left side of the car. I wish I could remember which side was which on the Austin Healey 3000 I owned. I stripped 2 of the splined hubs out on that car due to loose knock offs, both times it happened under braking not acceleration. That would in theory make the argument for having them rotate the other way. Left on left is probably correct but in my opinion it's more important to have them tight. -Steve
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PostPost by: elanplus2 » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:15 pm

Hi all,

yes, I have had my rears come loose (OK no jokes here please!), with one time being at the bottom of a very steep windy hill descent. Quite scary when it happens, the car develops a rear wheel steer tendency.

The reason I had the wheel spoke drilled is so that the length of race wireis kept as short and un-noticeable as possible. The drill holes are tiny - about 1.5mm diameter.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: kstrutt1 [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 19:15
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Knock-off direction (rt. vs. left)


The ones on my +2 are the right way around but I have still had the
rears come loose (as the rear takes torque in both directions I guess
the argument about thread direction scould be applied either way
around).
As the pegs and wheels were fine I have also wired them as Ray
describes (I looped the wire throught the spokes rather than drilling
the wheel though) they have not come loose since.


Kevin +2S130

--- In [email protected], "Edwards, Ray" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi All,

I agree with Tony V.

It was explained to me beautifully once by Miles Wilkins.

The nuts tighten up in the same direction as the wheel if the car
was moving forwards.


Therefore, the nuts on the LHS tighten counter clockwise.
The nuts on the RHS tighten clockwise.

Get it wrong and they will come undone owing to a phonomemenon
explained real well in the Hugh Haskell book "Colin Chapman - Lotus

Engineering".

I have spinner son the plus 2 that have been drilled on the ears.
Three ribs on the Gkn's have also been drilled, and I run a race wire

from the spinner to the wheel to make sure they don't come off.

Ray




As I recall.....

The nuts are supposed to tighten as you turn toward them the front
of the

car....so ..(and it is diffiicult for me to see how you are
oriented by your

"facing forward) but I think yours are wrong...

The ones on the left side...are reverse thread...so the arrow to
loosen

should be clock wise looking at the nut..

Can anybody else confirm this out there...?

As this is REALLY important...I would like to get others
confrmation...I

have been wrong before...so lets get a concenus before you are
driving down

the road and your wheels beat you to the next signal...

Bill Rabel has my old Elan...and that was the last knock off car I
owned....Bill?

Tony V



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intended

solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.


The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the
sender and delete.

Christchurch City Council
http://www.ccc.govt.nz

**********************************************************************








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PostPost by: elanplus2 » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:33 pm

Hi All,

Simon, read the Haskell book excerpt attached to the yahoo site. For certain wheels you are correct, but I think you may be mistaken for elan wheels.

Does anyone out there have an original elan as set up by the factory to confirm this once and for all.

Ray (I wire my nuts regardless!!) Edwards



I disagree with Tony, I think the left-side of the car should be
counter-clockwise to undo.

The knocks-ons should tighten up in the opposite direction that the wheel
turns when in forward motion.
This applies to all cars with knock-ons.
When the power is applied to the rear axle the left hand shaft will turn
counter clockwise.
Thus a clockwise tightening nut will naturally try to get tighter!

But I may well be wrong (and the S3 is bolt-on)so please wait until there is
a majority of opinioin on the list.

From experience it is really quite scary when a knock-on knocks off!!!

Simon


**********************************************************************
This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.

The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the
sender and delete.

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PostPost by: MikeC » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:50 pm

On Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:26:59 +1200 Edwards, Ray wrote:

Ray (I wire my nuts regardless!!) Edwards

Ohhhh! Pierced nuts! You punk-rocker you!


Mike
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PostPost by: tvacc » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:53 pm

I realize I am sticking my neck out abit here....but I am reasonably certain
that I was correct...

enough so that if I had the car...(and I did and I did take it apart and put
it back together) ...that the left side of the car is reverse thread...I can
say that without question that my car that Bill Rabel has...is set up that
way...and I am resoanbly certain that I put it back the way the factory had
it.

Would I risk my life on it...already did..drove that car at high speed quite
a bit..

As far as the wiring of the huts...I never wired the Nader nuts..but the
knockoffs I did...drilled a hole in one ear...and then wired it to one of
the spokes..

Tony V
http://www.lotusowners.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Edwards, Ray [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 4:27 PM
To: '***@***.***'
Subject: [LotusElan.net] RE: knock-off direction (rt. vs. left)


Hi All,

Simon, read the Haskell book excerpt attached to the yahoo site. For
certain wheels you are correct, but I think you may be mistaken for elan
wheels.

Does anyone out there have an original elan as set up by the factory to
confirm this once and for all.

Ray (I wire my nuts regardless!!) Edwards



I disagree with Tony, I think the left-side of the car should be
counter-clockwise to undo.

The knocks-ons should tighten up in the opposite direction that the wheel
turns when in forward motion.
This applies to all cars with knock-ons.
When the power is applied to the rear axle the left hand shaft will turn
counter clockwise.
Thus a clockwise tightening nut will naturally try to get tighter!

But I may well be wrong (and the S3 is bolt-on)so please wait until there is
a majority of opinioin on the list.

From experience it is really quite scary when a knock-on knocks off!!!

Simon


**********************************************************************
This electronic email and any files transmitted with it are intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.

The views expressed in this message are those of the individual
sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the Christchurch
City Council.

If you are not the correct recipient of this email please advise the
sender and delete.

Christchurch City Council
http://www.ccc.govt.nz
**********************************************************************
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15
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