Help with estimate - Elan Coupe

[Alpine_Ian]

Hi guys,

I've been contacted by another local Elan owner who would like me to work on his Elan Coupe and I'm having a hard time coming up with an estimate for him. Here is what he would like done:

1. Remove body from frame.
2. Clean frame and paint in DP-40 epoxy primer.
3. rebuild front and rear suspension.
4. Clean and paint engine, gearbox, and rear end.

Sounds like he has a running, driving car, but would like me to make the chassis look like the one I'm trying to sell.

The trouble I'm having is I don't remember how much time I spent on my car back 4 years ago when I took it apart. I wasn't doing my car with the intention of resale, so time and such wasn't a concern.

I can do the work with no problem, but want to be fair on price and somewhat accurate with an estimate for him. I'm open to the forum members thoughts on this. What would you guys expect to pay in labor (he will pay for his own parts) for this work.

Thanks guys!

Ian

[John Larkin]

That looks like two week's work for one man. Rates here in Dublin, Ireland would be ?40 ($60) an hour at least if invoiced, and less if done for cash so that the taxman did not know about it --- not that I would ever suggest that a Lotophile would countenance something so uncivic.

John Larkin.

[Alpine_Ian]

John,

Thanks for the reply. I think you may be about right on that.... I was thinking between 80 and 100 hours, not to exceed 100 hours. I can be very reasonable with him on rate per hour, but don't want to provide any false expectations where he gets burned or where I end up doing work for free.

The work detail is very vague at this point because you don't know what you are dealing with until you get the car apart. Makes it very hard to quote anything. Bottom line it that the work needs to be done on a cost per hour basis and it simply "costs what it costs" to do it. Unfortunately telling that to customers isn't good for bringing in business.

I'm still open to hearing other points of view on this one. Do the rest of you feel we are in the ball park?

Is there a factory labor manifest that quotes time and labor costs to complete service tasks?

[Elanintheforest]

I think that you?re looking at some big dosh! Before the detail, two main things come to mind:

Will the chassis be any good once blasted? The chances of it being rusty / split or bent are reasonably high?will he pay for a new one?

If you?re going that far, you may as well replace the brake pipes, overhaul the master and slave cylinders, overhaul the callipers, do the wheel bearings and the rack, replace the engine ? gearbox, diff and strut top mounts. It may also be worth considering painting the engine bay.

You can think about those separately. But if you brake down the main jobs and put number of hours against each main job:

Stripping down:
Remove body 10 hours
Engine / Box / prop from chassis 2
Remove rear suspension, diff, handbrake tree 4
Remove front suspension & steering rack 2
Remove brake pipes and sundries 2
Total ? 20 hours

Strip down assemblies:
Strip front suspension 2
Strip Rear suspension 2
Remove wishbone bushes 4
Split engine / box, remove ancillaries 2
Total ? 10 hours

Cleaning up:
Assemble all components (wishbones, backplates, driveshafts etc.) to be blasted / painted / powdercoated, get them to and from the shop
5 hours?

Plus cost for stripping / painting / powdercoating

Clean off engine / box / prop / Diff / sundries & prep 15 hours

Paint engine etc. 5 hours
Total ? 25 hours

Re-assemble assemblies 10 hours
Re-assemble chassis 10 hours
Body back on chassis, everything hooked up 10 hours

So you?re up to a ballpark 85 hours pretty quickly, and I?d also add a contingency for any rusted fastners etc?maybe another 10 hours. If you do the brake pipes, hydraulics etc. you could easily add another 15 hours?.prep and paint the engine bay a further 10 hours?.so now you?re up to 100 / 120 hours plus the cost of blasting / powdercoating etc., plus the cost of your sundries. Plus all the parts.

These are just round figures from having done the job a few times. It usually takes me 4 to 6 weeks, going at it 12 hours a day at weekends, most evenings and maybe a few early Fridays as well! I?m sure that a mechanic / engineer could do the work a fair bit faster than me.

And add another few hours if you?re using a new chassis for drilling and tapping the holes, and getting the body on / off one more time.

I would go through the breakdown yourself, adjust the numbers to what you think is reasonable, add some contingency, and present a non-costed breakdown of the work to be done to your customer with the ballpark $ figure you come up with AS A TARGET. But do it on a time and materials basis, keep a log of all time and money spent, and bill him as you go along from your log.

If he accepts your offer in the first place and you stick to your schedule, everyone will be happy.

Mark

[type36lotus]

Gee, SWAG as nothing is simple... not even simple cars. I would bet the 120 hour number gets exceededwhen all is said and done.

[cabc26b]

Hi Ian,

I recall it taking about 3 8hr days to completely break down the last elan I did. Keep in mind this was in a well equiped shop with extra hands available when needed and with a Ca black plate car ( not a single bit of rust ).

The big time sink may end up being the refurb and refit of the original parts. There are too many things that can go wrong in this process to contingency plan for. Mark has a pretty good set of processes Identified - one more that I could add is electrical - disturbing an old wiring harnes can bring about all kinds of trouble - I have even seen them crumble in your hands.....

Also, make sure you know the expectations on what he is expecting on cosmetics - you can spend a lot of time tring to make one of these cars look nice ( better than new?)

Have you considered swaping/selling your chassis as a roller and fitting his painted engine and body ?

G

[Alpine_Ian]

Hi Ian,

Have you considered swaping/selling your chassis as a roller and fitting his painted engine and body ?

G

Yes, I did think about that... but I think I may have my Elan sold and don't want to break it apart unless it's a last resort.

I like the detailed breakdown that Elanintheforest provided. I can see it getting in the 100 hour time frame the more I think about it.

It's funny. I've been trying to sell my project Elan and I keep getting offers for 10K and under. I can get anyone to look at the project for the work that has been completed and progress that has been made. I have people telling me that it's all apart and worth nothing because it's all apart.

The irony here is that I now have a customer asking for a chassis rebuild on a car that he bought AFTER he came and looked at my car. He could have purchased mine and saved money and time in the long run. Now he wants to do up the car he bought like mine was when he looked at it. Hee has the cost of the car on top of whaty it will now cost to fix it.

I'm figuring my time at 45/hr which is cheap for experienced restoration work. If you figure 4500 in labor at 100 hours plus parts and third party services he will have over 10K. Especially if he runs into chassis problems.

The folks who keep offering me less than 10K are eBay people who don't realise the value in a new frame, professionally cleaned and painted in DP40 epoxy primer, new suspension, AVO struts, rebuilt calipers wirh new pistons, automec brake lines, stainless flex lines, steering rebuild, trunions, bearings, seals, on and on... it all adds up. My chassis alone is worth what I'm getting offered. Maybe I should just part my car out.

I also have guys from eBay sending me little love notes telling me that there was an Elan selling for 10K or 12K here or there that was a driver and how I'm nuts for wanting so much money for my car. I can't help but think about how silly that is because you can't compare a driver like that, which could have a mile long list of unknown problems, with a frame off restoration that is documented and done right.

Oh well... I'm rambeling and showing my frustration. Sorry about that. I think you guys should understand what I mean though.

Ian

[bill308]

Every time I sit down and try to estimate how long it will take to do a task on my Elan I am wrong, usually by a factor of about 2. I do take into account what can go wrong and allow for this, but inevitably Murphy's Law kicks in. Need a particular bolt replaced? I am off to the local supplier. Bolts or nuts badly rusted, off to the local supplier and chase the threads when necessary. Body banana shaped when viewed from above, no problem, slit the body and rebond. Is the left side not like the right side? Pick one and make the other side similar. Any possibility the task will have to be performed in the future? Use antisieze, paint the part, rectify the clearances, etc. When I perform a task, I find I spend a lot of time thinking about the results I want to accomplish and how I will go about getting there. When working on one's own car, there is the condition, "while you're in there, might as well do ..........

I usually don't farm my labor out, but if I did, I'd probably be better able to control time and costs, as I would know, that to break even, or make a profit, I would have to accomplish something in a certain amount of time. In the end, the results would likely be that the job was completed about on time and with appropriate results, but the results would likely not be to my own personal standards. Working on my own Lotus or F-car, is a bit of a labor of love, or maybe I am just a masochist.

Bill

[chicagojeff]

I would guess 120 hours. That said, you really should only quote an estimate and then agree on an appropriate rate per hour--that way neither of you gets screwed. If he trusts you enough to do this level of work, he should trust you enough to be fair that you are only working the number of hours necessary. So, figure what you think your time is worth, and go from there. Shops generally charge 75-115 per hour for serious work, so ....

Also, with quoting him the job, you have two unknown variables implied--your hourly rate and the time it will take. Eliminate one of the variables (rate) and you'll both get more comfortable.

[DrEntropy]

Ian, you're conflicted!

You KNOW what your frame is worth in its present condition and get yer hackles up when some git tries to hammer you over it, yet feel as if you need to charge less than HALF the hourly rate the work is bound to fetch in a specialty shop... Be fair, yes. But do not sell your skill short either. Suggest he get a couple independent bids for the work first. That should put some perspective on it. For both parties.

I'm NOT trying to be a smart-arse here, I did specialty resto work for years on all-sorts (Euro cars, all pre-'75), a number of Elans (including my own, twice) and the policy was: hours billed as the task was accomplished. Think ~old cars~ here. You cannot predict WHAT you're gonna find under there until you're INTO it. Too late then to renegotiate. And DOCUMENT (photos and notes) every operation. Even doing a job like this "privately" I would be unashamed to bill at $75~$100/hr. Your level of workmanship alone should be justification. Or simply let him walk.

[Alpine_Ian]

Dr. R... you da man!

Thanks for those words of support and guidance. I needed that!

Ian

Ian, you're conflicted!

You KNOW what your frame is worth in its present condition and get yer hackles up when some git tries to hammer you over it, yet feel as if you need to charge less than HALF the hourly rate the work is bound to fetch in a specialty shop... Be fair, yes. But do not sell your skill short either. Suggest he get a couple independent bids for the work first. That should put some perspective on it. For both parties.

I'm NOT trying to be a smart-arse here, I did specialty resto work for years on all-sorts (Euro cars, all pre-'75), a number of Elans (including my own, twice) and the policy was: hours billed as the task was accomplished. Think ~old cars~ here. You cannot predict WHAT you're gonna find under there until you're INTO it. Too late then to renegotiate. And DOCUMENT (photos and notes) every operation. Even doing a job like this "privately" I would be unashamed to bill at $75~$100/hr. Your level of workmanship alone should be justification. Or simply let him walk.