Lotus Elan

Help (Again)

PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:08 pm

Hi all, I have posted this before a while ago, so its a bit of a repeat,

Basicaly, I will soon have my plus 2 MOT'd, cant wait. My drama is I have an emerald 3d fuel injection system that I would like to fit. As I dont have the skills to fit this I have been asking different companies for a quote, not many are willing to carry out this conversion. So can anyone offer any assistance, either with companies or those who have sucsesfully carried this out on thier own cars.

Many thanks,

Paul
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PostPost by: mikealdren » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:28 pm

You could try Spyder, they use Emerald on their Zetec conversions

Mike
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PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:03 pm

Thanks Mike,
I have sent Sean an email,hopefuly get a better response,

I see your in Surrey, I am too till end of march. Is there a local meet that you know of in the area. Im in Camberly.

Paul
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PostPost by: Mark B » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:44 pm

Paul,

You could also try Dave Walker (the inventor of the emerald system), he could fit it and rolling road the car with it at the same time....

I think he's based around norwich/ norfolk area.

Cheers,
Mark.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:02 pm

Mark

I spoke to Dave,He says he only sells and maps the systems.He was kind enougth to pass on people to contact but no one seems interested,well not at a price I want to pay anyway.Im looking at trying to learn a bit about electrics to do it myself.Best get a fire extinguisher,soon.So if anyone can point me in the right directionid be VERY gratefull.

Paul
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:30 pm

Paul

Not Emerald but full of useful information is http://www.msextra.com/ from the practicals to the theory etc etc. plenty of people (well a few at least ) on here have fitted EFI to their twinks..

John :wink:
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PostPost by: Mark B » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:11 am

Oh right, he used to do installs, but it's going back a long time before he did so much magazine work, so I guess it doesn't warrant the time.
I've done a couple of carb to fuel injection conversions (although not on elans) and it isn't that difficult to be honest, if you have no luck with spyder then seriously think about doing it yourself. If you prepare & research properly and take your time I'm sure you'd be ok.
The other alternative is a motorsport specialist or similar. You could ask troy at northampton motorsport as that's the kind of job they would do, or cambridge motorsport as I think they have a bit to do with elans aswell.

HTH
Mark.

pauljones915 wrote:Mark

I spoke to Dave,He says he only sells and maps the systems.He was kind enougth to pass on people to contact but no one seems interested,well not at a price I want to pay anyway.Im looking at trying to learn a bit about electrics to do it myself.Best get a fire extinguisher,soon.So if anyone can point me in the right directionid be VERY gratefull.

Paul
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PostPost by: bob_rich » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:04 pm

Hi Paul

I am fitting an Emerald to my +2S with a Twink engine and have got the main bits from Dave Walker at Emerald. He, and his staff has been very helpful. I am going 2 use Jenvey throttle bodies, wasted spark ignition with a 36 tooth Ford Crank sensor fitted to the timing pulley. Like U I am having to learn as I go along. if you go to the Emerald web site you can down load the book on the ECU unit. This has quite a lot of useful info as does Dave Walkers book on Engine Management ISBN 978 1 85960 835 7

It will be some time B 4 I am ready to power up but hopefully that will B B4 the end of the year

hope this helps keep us posted on how it all goes!

cheers

Bob
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PostPost by: pauljones » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:46 pm

Hi all,
I know its a bit late but thanks for all the input,
Bob,sounds like our cars will be running preety much the same system.I got a good package from Emerald and cant fault the service too.Im using a coil pack from a 1600zetec thats laying around the garage so I just need the triger wheel to make it work.As for the install,when I get my car back it will be a daily driver,mostly,and not having used her for a few years I want to get a bit of fun first before I take her apart again.So Im thinking about dummy instaling the TB's so I can get the ECU fitted and the loom sorted,then mount everything else.The idea is to still keep her on the carbs and dizzy,then when I have the rest sorted,drive her to Dave,swap the carbs to the TB's,plug her up and hopefully(big hopefully) get her mapped.But as Im finding out,possibly not that simple.
Keep me informed if you can and Ill do the same,when Im done I will put the results of the dyno on the site.Im sure it will raise some questions and eye brows

Paul
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PostPost by: Mark B » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:59 pm

Paul,

It's not quite that simple unfortunately, swapping from carbs to fuel injection will require either a different fuel tank or modifications to your existing one, plus depending on that decision you'll need a new fuel pump, swirl pot and secondary fuel pump, a return fuel line needs to be put in along with the associated engine bay components....

The tank/ fuel line and pump arrangements are a bit of a pain, the rest is bolt on stuff and wiring up really.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:18 pm

Mark,
Very true,I have had a new tank from Andy Wiltshire thats set for fuel injection.That has been fitted so its a case of feeding a return to the engine bay and blocking it off,the feed will be a bit harder to sort out as the pump will be electric and probably to high for the carbs to handle,(presure and flow) I'll not pretend to be an expert of any kind,so its a trial and error situation for me,hopefully helped along the way by the kind people on this forum.
Im hopeing your right about the rest being a bit of a bolt on and wire up situation,but as the emerald isnt exactly cheap,I dont want to mess up things.But it will be a learning curve for sure.Im interested in why you say a secondary fuel pump,why is that? I ask because I first thought of keeping the original lift pump to supply another small tank(is that what you call a swirl pot?),and have the electric pump feed from this to the fuel rail,with the return back to the main tank.I put this on the forum but didnt get a good response,am i wrong perhaps?

Im interested in your thoughts.

Paul
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PostPost by: Mark B » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:00 pm

Hi Paul,

Yes reg the swirl pot it's basically a pressurised small tank fed by a pump (before the main pump) to avoid fuel starvation especially during cornering. It's normally needed if your tank doesn't have enough baffles, a "sump" or gravity feed from it which would interrupt the flow to the engine. As the average fuel injection system operates at 2.5 -3 bar pressure versus 0.5 -1 bar for carbs this is an important factor.
If you've bought a fuel injection tank though you shouldn't need one, Andy wiltshire should be able to confirm this though, oh and don't forget to upgrade your fuel hoses throughout to high pressure injection types aswell.

In the engine bay your throttle bodies will bolt straight on, mount the fuel pressure regulator at the return end of the fuel rail (not the supply end), the throttle potentiometer will need to be setup for the engine map and is mounted on the end of the throttle body spindle, mount the air temp sensor in the airfilter backplate and the ecu preferably under the dash away from moisture (if that's possible in a lotus!).

All the sensors will plug in, all fairly straightforward, if you need a trigger wheel try http://trigger-wheels.com/store/?gclid= ... 4Qodx2CLeQ

The connections to the main loom from the injection loom should be something like +12v, Ground, Tacho feed (from coil pack) and fuel pump feed, which you should be able to find reasonably easily with a multimeter and a manual.

When you get it running borrow a synchrometer and balance the throttle bodies (as you would carbs), set the idle speed and recheck the throttle pot setting.

I'm not familiar with the emerald setup but it usually works the same way on all systems whereby the throttle pot setting is important, the engine needs to know it's correct position otherwise the fueling can be too high or too low depending on which way out it is.

If you take your time, read the instructions carefully, do a bit of research etc you'll be fine. It's well worthwhile having it rolling road checked after, it'll optimise everything, give you better running & mpg aswell as giving you peace of mind that everything is right.

HTH
Mark.
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PostPost by: Mark B » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:10 pm

Oh as an example have a look at this car- http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2429460.htm
On the photo of the bootspace you can see the main tank and just to the right lower down is a smaller tank, that's the swirl pot.
It shouldn't really be necessary on that car as the tank is high up & has gravity working with it, but with the standard elan tank it's low down in the boot so you may need one unless it has something built inside it to prevent surge. Again Andy should be able to confirm this for you.

When spyder used the tank in the original location for their zetec conversions they used a swirl pot & seconday pump, but now they use a setup similar to the one in the link so they don't need to.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:39 pm

Mark,
Thanks for that,now I really want that car,what a jem. I think my tank has baffles in it already,in fact Andy said he would be able to put in an internal pump for me too,if I wanted.I declined.I think from what you have said,that I can go with the idea of the swirl tank,feed by the lift pump,and have the high presure side coming off that with the return back to the main tank.At least that way I dont have much messing around with fuel lines at the back.So what size/design should the swirl pot be is the next question,and where to mount it,and the pump?
I cant wait to get my car back and get playing.

Thanks for your help.

Paul
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PostPost by: Mark B » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:00 am

Hi Paul,

The fuel swirl pot & supply pump need to be mounted close to the main tank (ie next to it in the boot), I'd use an off the shelf swirl pot. Here's some for you to choose from-

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/index.php?cPath=1578_1586

http://obpltd.com/obp-shop/alloy-fuel-swirl-pots

http://www.sm-engineering.co.uk/alloy_f ... e_tank.php

Use 8mm (5/16) for the feed and return fuel lines, you won't go wrong with that.

Cheers,
Mark.
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