Wanted Spyder Zetec Elan + 2
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Post by: memnon » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:44 pm
Mark,
I get where you are coming from, but
The gearbox is a decent 5 speed 'box (MT75)
A twin cam needs constant looking after a Zetec doesn't it goes 12000 miles between services
It can be used as an every day car
It has a handbrake so I could take it to an AutoSolo!
Would I pay ?30k for one? No. But I get the charm of not having to go out at the weekend and tinker, yet still drive a classic looking car, that starts on the button every time I need it to, and retains the ethics of a Lotus Elan+2
Memnon (A different Jason)
I get where you are coming from, but
The gearbox is a decent 5 speed 'box (MT75)
A twin cam needs constant looking after a Zetec doesn't it goes 12000 miles between services
It can be used as an every day car
It has a handbrake so I could take it to an AutoSolo!
Would I pay ?30k for one? No. But I get the charm of not having to go out at the weekend and tinker, yet still drive a classic looking car, that starts on the button every time I need it to, and retains the ethics of a Lotus Elan+2
Memnon (A different Jason)
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Post by: richgilb » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:52 pm
emissions, rebuild costs if something does go wrong, can convert to lpg if petrol prices get silly, winter morning cold starting, more torque, more bhp in standard trim, engine likely to have less miles on it?
I am now an ex-Elan owner but will drop by from time to time with some suitably inappropriate comments.
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Post by: Elanintheforest » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:35 pm
Hmmm, have a look at this stuff one topic at a time.
The gearbox is a decent one?well, yes it is. So is the 4 speed Ford box, and the 5 speed Lotus box, properly rebuilt, it pretty good as well. The Elan in all it?s forms is a point and squirt machine, never really conceived to be a comfy cruiser. The window frames, the rubber seals all make a din once you?re over 100mph, so no matter what the engine revs are, the car isn?t quiet like a modern car
A Twincam needs constant looking after. Sorry, but it doesn?t. A knackered twincam, with a tired distributor and worn out carburettors rarely performs properly, and cannot be tuned properly at all, let alone stay in tune. A rebuilt engine will not need to be looked at between two services. Yes, the service interval is 5000 miles, but that is probably more than most folks do in their twincam OR Zetec cars in a year.
It can be used as an everyday car. So can a twincam. I used one everyday for 5 years. Brian Buckland has done 600,000 miles in his Elan, and I know of another couple of cars that have done more than 400,000 miles, and are used everyday. The Zetec engined car is no more or less suitable than a twincam as an everyday car because, as previously mentioned, the provisions for heating, cooling, ventilation and secondary safety are identical.
It has a handbrake that works. I can lock the rear wheels of my Elan?.how can a Spyder one be any better than that?
Emissions?can?t argue with that one.
Rebuild cost if something goes wrong. Do you really think that a 16 valve twincam is cheaper to rebuild than an 8 valve twincam, or are you expecting to rebuild the car with scarpyard parts?
Can convert to LPG?.why can?t you do that with a twincam? The boot is the same size!
Winter morning cold starts. This is when the twincam is at it?s best?two stabs on the throttle, no choke and it fires up straight away.
More torque and bhp?depends which Zetec you use and what state of tune the twincam is in?.but yes, generally you?re right.
Engine miles?.depends entirely where the engine came from. If I was paying ?30k for a car, I would expect it to have zero miles on.
You haven?t mentioned the mechanical fuel pump, vs the electric, the vacuum headlamps vs the Toyota motor version, the electronic ignition vs points and of course the dynamo vs the alternator. Generally, yes of course the Zetec is more efficient than the twincam. My missus has one in her ST Focus, and it?s a cracking engine, but a lot of smart folks at Ford spent a long time developing the car to work as a whole with that engine, so it cruses quietly at 120mph, it accelerates well through it?s 6 speed box, and it goes round corners like harpic. If all you?re trying to do is make an Elan perform as well as a Ford Focus?.well, there is a cheaper way.
Don?t fall for the pub talk that the old twincams are so unreliable and never stay in tune?.that?s just nonsense drawn upon the experience of folks running old bangers that are 30 plus years old that need reconditioning properly (the engines that is!). The biggest reliability issue with any Elan is the electrics, and they can be sorted equally well (or play up in the same manner) irrespective of engine or chassis choice.
I guess that the thing that really bugs me is when folks compare a 'new' Spyder Zetec car to a clapped out Elan, and maybe inadvertently, that's what most folks do when they talk about reliability issues, being used as an everyday car etc. If you think for a moment that the Spyder is going to drive or feel like a modern sports car, you're going to be very disappointed. Far better, for me, to be hugely impressed by a car designed and made in the 1960s.....complete with all it's foibles. That way, when my Missis beats you away from the lights in her Focus, and outcorners you whilst putting on her lipstick, you won't feel too bad about it. Having said that, if I had the skills, I probably would build one for the challenge and fun of doing it....and it would have a BIG engine that the Focus couldn't catch!
One last consideration?? once you have your Spyder car, and it goes wrong, where are you going to take it to get it fixed?
Mark
The gearbox is a decent one?well, yes it is. So is the 4 speed Ford box, and the 5 speed Lotus box, properly rebuilt, it pretty good as well. The Elan in all it?s forms is a point and squirt machine, never really conceived to be a comfy cruiser. The window frames, the rubber seals all make a din once you?re over 100mph, so no matter what the engine revs are, the car isn?t quiet like a modern car
A Twincam needs constant looking after. Sorry, but it doesn?t. A knackered twincam, with a tired distributor and worn out carburettors rarely performs properly, and cannot be tuned properly at all, let alone stay in tune. A rebuilt engine will not need to be looked at between two services. Yes, the service interval is 5000 miles, but that is probably more than most folks do in their twincam OR Zetec cars in a year.
It can be used as an everyday car. So can a twincam. I used one everyday for 5 years. Brian Buckland has done 600,000 miles in his Elan, and I know of another couple of cars that have done more than 400,000 miles, and are used everyday. The Zetec engined car is no more or less suitable than a twincam as an everyday car because, as previously mentioned, the provisions for heating, cooling, ventilation and secondary safety are identical.
It has a handbrake that works. I can lock the rear wheels of my Elan?.how can a Spyder one be any better than that?
Emissions?can?t argue with that one.
Rebuild cost if something goes wrong. Do you really think that a 16 valve twincam is cheaper to rebuild than an 8 valve twincam, or are you expecting to rebuild the car with scarpyard parts?
Can convert to LPG?.why can?t you do that with a twincam? The boot is the same size!
Winter morning cold starts. This is when the twincam is at it?s best?two stabs on the throttle, no choke and it fires up straight away.
More torque and bhp?depends which Zetec you use and what state of tune the twincam is in?.but yes, generally you?re right.
Engine miles?.depends entirely where the engine came from. If I was paying ?30k for a car, I would expect it to have zero miles on.
You haven?t mentioned the mechanical fuel pump, vs the electric, the vacuum headlamps vs the Toyota motor version, the electronic ignition vs points and of course the dynamo vs the alternator. Generally, yes of course the Zetec is more efficient than the twincam. My missus has one in her ST Focus, and it?s a cracking engine, but a lot of smart folks at Ford spent a long time developing the car to work as a whole with that engine, so it cruses quietly at 120mph, it accelerates well through it?s 6 speed box, and it goes round corners like harpic. If all you?re trying to do is make an Elan perform as well as a Ford Focus?.well, there is a cheaper way.
Don?t fall for the pub talk that the old twincams are so unreliable and never stay in tune?.that?s just nonsense drawn upon the experience of folks running old bangers that are 30 plus years old that need reconditioning properly (the engines that is!). The biggest reliability issue with any Elan is the electrics, and they can be sorted equally well (or play up in the same manner) irrespective of engine or chassis choice.
I guess that the thing that really bugs me is when folks compare a 'new' Spyder Zetec car to a clapped out Elan, and maybe inadvertently, that's what most folks do when they talk about reliability issues, being used as an everyday car etc. If you think for a moment that the Spyder is going to drive or feel like a modern sports car, you're going to be very disappointed. Far better, for me, to be hugely impressed by a car designed and made in the 1960s.....complete with all it's foibles. That way, when my Missis beats you away from the lights in her Focus, and outcorners you whilst putting on her lipstick, you won't feel too bad about it. Having said that, if I had the skills, I probably would build one for the challenge and fun of doing it....and it would have a BIG engine that the Focus couldn't catch!
One last consideration?? once you have your Spyder car, and it goes wrong, where are you going to take it to get it fixed?
Mark
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Post by: memnon » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:33 am
Mark,
I'm up for the discussion.
Where would I take the Spyder Elan when it goes wrong? Any Ford Garage since the parts are almost all Ford. Its much easier to find than a good Lotus mechanic.
My point about the handbrake stands in the context I set it; AutoSolos
Rebuild costs - I doubt that a Zetec properly built would be any cheaper, but the parts are more available. Tolerances in the Zetec are much better, just because of progress
My elan has an alternator, but the standard Zetec Alternator and startermotor are much better than the original Lotus fitted items. I can replace them on my Lotus, but thats not the point you are making.
I agree that too many comparisons are made between tired elans and the Spyder version, but I think one point not made is that the development of the cars continue, in a vein that Chapman/Hickman would have approved of.
Again, I know thats not your "thing", but I can understand that idea.
I'm up for the discussion.
Where would I take the Spyder Elan when it goes wrong? Any Ford Garage since the parts are almost all Ford. Its much easier to find than a good Lotus mechanic.
My point about the handbrake stands in the context I set it; AutoSolos
Rebuild costs - I doubt that a Zetec properly built would be any cheaper, but the parts are more available. Tolerances in the Zetec are much better, just because of progress
My elan has an alternator, but the standard Zetec Alternator and startermotor are much better than the original Lotus fitted items. I can replace them on my Lotus, but thats not the point you are making.
I agree that too many comparisons are made between tired elans and the Spyder version, but I think one point not made is that the development of the cars continue, in a vein that Chapman/Hickman would have approved of.
Again, I know thats not your "thing", but I can understand that idea.
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Post by: rocket » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:23 am
Just to add my view on this..erm ..discussion..i brought my twin cam 18 months ago.Its my first classic car after being a bike person.I looked at zetec options but ended up with an original twink though didnt mind which id had at time,just loved the cars looks.In hindsight im really pleased i have the twink,its been a rollercoaster getting it well sorted but what fun getting there,it now runs reliably,touch wood and id never swop it for a modern engine.Theres just something that gets to me in this old engine in a way a modern engine just cant...
Ian.
Ian.
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Post by: Elanintheforest » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:56 am
I do prize originality, but I?m also interested in modifications, preferably period mods, that do make a big difference. That?s why I have a 1700 BDA in my Plus 2.
No, the biggie for me is the comparison between the totally unreliable original that needs maintenance every 10 miles and the sublime Spyder that has the same characteristics as a 2008 sports car. I?m exaggerating of course, but remember that most Plus 2s, like any other car, were used everyday for the first 5 or so years of their life, and they can still do it, if that?s what the owner wants.
The biggest worry for me in owning / running a Spyder wouldn?t be the engine, chassis or suspension, it?s the meeting of the two different ages of technology. Most of them seem to have aftermarket injectors, ECUs, sensors, fuel pumps and regulators. All this lot is set up by some clever lads who know what they?re doing using software that is currently available. All these new bits have to be added into the wiring loom, which has to be substantially beefed up with relays to protect the circuits.
So when something goes wrong, it?s in this area that the problems will start to be seen. Take it to the Ford garage, and they won?t touch it?they are set up for diagnosing issues on standard cars using standard components. Take it to Paul Matty, Miles Wikins, Chris Neil, and they won?t touch it either, or if they do, it will be back to basics, and quite a few hours charges just understanding what you have. In 5 or 10 years time, will the ECU being used be supported? The standard Focus one will. Hence my question of where to take it when something goes wrong. The Zetec engine is bullet proof?that won?t cause any problems.
I?ve nothing against injection systems either, and I?m currently looking to upgrade my V12 E Type, running on carbs, to injection. This is simple to do, as the V12 engine went through this factory development in the mid 70s with the XJS, and was upgraded in 4 generations until the last of the V12s in the mid 90s. So when injecting the engine, you can select which generation you want, get all the matching components and bolt them on, and you have a system that is standard, reliable and most importantly, maintainable by any Jag garage or independent in the country. There?s even a standard ?extension? loom available to accommodate the ECU, injector, resistance pack and sensor wiring, and a wiring diagram for future reference and diagnostics?piece of cake!!
I think that due to maintainability issues, I would keep a Zetec with carburettors, avoiding the need for all the complex additional wiring. That way, you could get fantastic power and torque from a 2 litre Zetec and keep it totally maintainable, whether Spyder is still around in 10 years time or not. Nice and simple and a big performance improvement. And, yes, I would use the modern 5 speed box as well.
Last thought?.I wonder just how many Spyder cars really are used everyday like a modern car?10,000 to 15,000 miles a year. I have a chum who uses his 1924 Vauxhall 30 / 98 everyday, but that?s a round trip of about 6 miles a day?.that?s cheating!
Mark
No, the biggie for me is the comparison between the totally unreliable original that needs maintenance every 10 miles and the sublime Spyder that has the same characteristics as a 2008 sports car. I?m exaggerating of course, but remember that most Plus 2s, like any other car, were used everyday for the first 5 or so years of their life, and they can still do it, if that?s what the owner wants.
The biggest worry for me in owning / running a Spyder wouldn?t be the engine, chassis or suspension, it?s the meeting of the two different ages of technology. Most of them seem to have aftermarket injectors, ECUs, sensors, fuel pumps and regulators. All this lot is set up by some clever lads who know what they?re doing using software that is currently available. All these new bits have to be added into the wiring loom, which has to be substantially beefed up with relays to protect the circuits.
So when something goes wrong, it?s in this area that the problems will start to be seen. Take it to the Ford garage, and they won?t touch it?they are set up for diagnosing issues on standard cars using standard components. Take it to Paul Matty, Miles Wikins, Chris Neil, and they won?t touch it either, or if they do, it will be back to basics, and quite a few hours charges just understanding what you have. In 5 or 10 years time, will the ECU being used be supported? The standard Focus one will. Hence my question of where to take it when something goes wrong. The Zetec engine is bullet proof?that won?t cause any problems.
I?ve nothing against injection systems either, and I?m currently looking to upgrade my V12 E Type, running on carbs, to injection. This is simple to do, as the V12 engine went through this factory development in the mid 70s with the XJS, and was upgraded in 4 generations until the last of the V12s in the mid 90s. So when injecting the engine, you can select which generation you want, get all the matching components and bolt them on, and you have a system that is standard, reliable and most importantly, maintainable by any Jag garage or independent in the country. There?s even a standard ?extension? loom available to accommodate the ECU, injector, resistance pack and sensor wiring, and a wiring diagram for future reference and diagnostics?piece of cake!!
I think that due to maintainability issues, I would keep a Zetec with carburettors, avoiding the need for all the complex additional wiring. That way, you could get fantastic power and torque from a 2 litre Zetec and keep it totally maintainable, whether Spyder is still around in 10 years time or not. Nice and simple and a big performance improvement. And, yes, I would use the modern 5 speed box as well.
Last thought?.I wonder just how many Spyder cars really are used everyday like a modern car?10,000 to 15,000 miles a year. I have a chum who uses his 1924 Vauxhall 30 / 98 everyday, but that?s a round trip of about 6 miles a day?.that?s cheating!
Mark
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Post by: richgilb » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:05 pm
How many posts end up with this argument? The original was about sourcing a zetec elan and starting a forum....the poster has gone quiet on us, leaving us owners bickering this old chestnut!
Seems this is about as subjective as pop music. Were the Beatles or the Stones the greatest band in the 60s? Well, it's the Velvet Underground for me every time.
I stand corrected on lpg and carbs...i thought you could only run lpg with fuel injected engines.
Seems this is about as subjective as pop music. Were the Beatles or the Stones the greatest band in the 60s? Well, it's the Velvet Underground for me every time.
I stand corrected on lpg and carbs...i thought you could only run lpg with fuel injected engines.
I am now an ex-Elan owner but will drop by from time to time with some suitably inappropriate comments.
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Post by: trw99 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:39 pm
[quote="richgilb"]Seems this is about as subjective as pop music. Were the Beatles or the Stones the greatest band in the 60s? Well, it's the Velvet Underground for me every time. [quote]
Cream!
Cream!
Visit www.lotuselansprint.com
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Post by: Robbie693 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:20 pm
trw99 wrote:richgilb wrote:Seems this is about as subjective as pop music. Were the Beatles or the Stones the greatest band in the 60s? Well, it's the Velvet Underground for me every time.
Cream!
I'm with Tim on that one
Or Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac...
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Post by: Elanintheforest » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:24 pm
My immediate reaction was Led Zepp....but then I just wasn't thinking, because it's all about source and originality. Who shaped the greatest guitarists of the 60s...Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck? Of course, it has to be....The Yardbirds!!
If Spyderman is still reading this, he may just think that there may be two sides to the original vs. Spyder story, and you don't always get what you think you're paying for
To address your question, Richgilb, I guess that the debate will continue so long as people can be bothered to try and put forward constructive argument for and against a subject, rather than just going along with ill-informed pub chat and prejudice. It's not all subjective.
Mark
If Spyderman is still reading this, he may just think that there may be two sides to the original vs. Spyder story, and you don't always get what you think you're paying for
To address your question, Richgilb, I guess that the debate will continue so long as people can be bothered to try and put forward constructive argument for and against a subject, rather than just going along with ill-informed pub chat and prejudice. It's not all subjective.Mark
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Post by: Robbie693 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:58 pm
My immediate reaction was Led Zepp....but then I just wasn't thinking, because it's all about source and originality. Who shaped the greatest guitarists of the 60s...Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck? Of course, it has to be....The Yardbirds!!
Well if your talking about shaping our Brit guitarists, how about BB King, Freddie King, Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy, Robert Johnson, Willie Broonzy, Charlie Patton, Lowel Fulson, to name but a few...!
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Post by: Elanintheforest » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:11 pm
You win, Robbie I should have thought this through better as I just saw Louisiana Red this week, one time chum of Muddy Waters, Elmore James, John Lee Hooker...the list is endless. He's still awesome at nearly 80!
Mark
Mark
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Post by: Craig Elliott » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:32 pm
Spyderman - I was involved in a comparison between (my) more or less standard +2 S130/5 and a sypder zetec car that Jerry Thurston built that was in Classics Monthly. The car seemed to me to be extremely well built with a fantastic paint job/body work by Option 1 and if I recall correctly Jerry was selling it for around ?21k. I don't know if it's gone yet but at that money seemed pretty good value. If you do spot the article (there was a discussion on this thread) you'll see that much was made of the car's set up with an emphasis on fast road/track days and the set up was pretty stiff. I suspect that most if not all of that could be resolved by adjusting the shockabsorbers.
I guess the reality is that in both zetec and original cases you'll get what you pay for. If you don't pay much then don't expect it to be very reliable without putting in more work - whether it's an unloved original or a badly put together zetec. A good zetec may be more reliable under hard use than an original (especially if you're looking for more power), but as mentioned elsewhere, long term maintenance and (possibly?) values may be an issue.
Look at as many different cars (both zetec and original) as you can, work out what you want the car for, what you're prepared to do to keep it going and you'll be much better placed to make a decision.
...and by way of being mischievous, a couple of photos...
C
I guess the reality is that in both zetec and original cases you'll get what you pay for. If you don't pay much then don't expect it to be very reliable without putting in more work - whether it's an unloved original or a badly put together zetec. A good zetec may be more reliable under hard use than an original (especially if you're looking for more power), but as mentioned elsewhere, long term maintenance and (possibly?) values may be an issue.
Look at as many different cars (both zetec and original) as you can, work out what you want the car for, what you're prepared to do to keep it going and you'll be much better placed to make a decision.
...and by way of being mischievous, a couple of photos...
C
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Post by: Robbie693 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:46 pm
Elanintheforest wrote:You win, Robbie I should have thought this through better as I just saw Louisiana Red this week, one time chum of Muddy Waters, Elmore James, John Lee Hooker...the list is endless. He's still awesome at nearly 80!
Mark
Wow - I didn't know he was over. Sounds like you had a good time.
Not many originals left now I'm afraid
Sincere apologies for hijacking the thread by the way (I knew I shouldn't have got started on music!)
I'll stop now - normal service resumed.
Robbie
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