Lotus Elan

high torque starter and solenoid removal

PostPost by: dgym » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:45 am

Hiya,
been a while since i've been here (block has been at the machinist for like six months geeeze).

anyway while it's not running i started thinking about wiring, I have a high torque starter and that means there's no reason for the starter solenoid other than as a big terminal.

Why don't people seem to remove the solenoid? it is heavy and not needed. Is it for safety reasons? I would imagine if you ran a big fat battery positive down to the starter there is a risk of it touching the block and bad cooking things would happen....but, it's also possible in many other situations.

what ch'all reckon?
happy new year :)
36/6612
1967 S3 Coupe (left the factory in 66)
original rego PPC 8E
original owner B.M. Wetherill ..are you out there?
User avatar
dgym
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 353
Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: Craven » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:56 am

It’s also a termination block, the main feed to the car starts there.
Craven
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 912
Joined: 14 Sep 2013
Location: south coast uk

PostPost by: collins_dan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:37 pm

My s4 had a high torque starter and no solenoid, and was wired as you described with battery running directly to starter. The problem is the running the ignition wire directly to the starter can result in insufficient voltage to fully engage the pinion. I recommend leaving the solenoid in place. Mine worked fine for at least 10 years, and I have been over all the grounds, replaced starter, ignition switch, earth strap to engine... you name it. My conclusion is best to leave it wired up as intended. All the best, Dan
User avatar
collins_dan
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD

PostPost by: ericbushby » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:11 pm

Following on from Dan`s observations, I suggest you check the current drawn by the starters internal solenoid. ( the smaller terminal )
On my starter it is about 6 Amps
If it is high you may not want that amount of current passing through the ignition switch.
You could of course fit a relay, but then you are making it complicated again.
I have left the bulkhead solenoid in and it takes two and a half Amps
Let us know what you decide,
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC
ericbushby
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 769
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Location: east lancashire

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:22 pm

Ditto
The above , leave the solenoid to do the low and high ampage to the starter , just connect the two together you also have some originality..

John :wink:
User avatar
john.p.clegg
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

PostPost by: Elan45 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:51 am

For years I've been concerned about the proximity of the solenoid to the rear carburetor, in the case of a frontal impact accident or maybe even the solenoid vibrating loose. I installed a high torque stater on my Super Safety a couple of years ago and the old lump solenoid excused himself and left the table and I feel much safer. Fire terrifies me!

Roger
'67 Elan S3 SS DHC
'67 Elan FHC pre-airflow
'67 Elan S3 SE upgrade to 26R by Original owner
'58 Eleven S2 (ex-works)
'62 20/22 FJ (ex-Yamura)
'70 Elan +2S RHD
'61 20 FJ project
'76 Modus M1 F3
Elan45
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 817
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPost by: dgym » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:21 am

Thanks guys,
I should have mentioned that this car has a new custom loom that I put together not long ago. So the wires are rated higher and there are more fuses/relays.
I'm not worried about having to add terminals to get power to the fusebox and coil etc, I can do that no worries. I was thinking about something that both passes through the bulkhead and acts as a terminal, instead of the awkward way the battery positive cable routes through.
I'm also not worried about originality, that boat has long since sailed!
It's a fun exercise for me to lose weight, (on the car at least HAHA) and this solenoid appears to not be doing the work of a solenoid (as the ig switch is already going straight to the starter's inbuilt solenoid) so right now the solenoid is just dead weight. both the pos from the battery and the pos to the starter are mounter on the same bolt.

I guess my concern was more about safety from a short, as I will have a positive cable down near the engine block and under the carbs. But yeah it seems like something that probably happens on cars anyway without any more danger.
36/6612
1967 S3 Coupe (left the factory in 66)
original rego PPC 8E
original owner B.M. Wetherill ..are you out there?
User avatar
dgym
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 353
Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: stugilmour » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:28 am

My Plus 2 is set up as you describe. I used a terminal block approximately where the solenoid was mounted, with a large cable down to the starter so I didn’t have to replace the cable from the battery. I also installed a fusible link from the terminal block to protect the whole loom. The alternator main also goes to the terminal block, routed in the engine bay. The stock ammeter was replaced by a voltmeter.

Interesting to read about some of the concerns. Mine seems to work OK.

Stu
Plus 2
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
2000 Esprit V8 TT
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1701
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: dgym » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:57 am

Hi Stu yes this is what I'm thinking and it's great to see someone who has done it.

I was going to ask about the voltmeter then realized I don't have one anyway!

cheers -Jim
36/6612
1967 S3 Coupe (left the factory in 66)
original rego PPC 8E
original owner B.M. Wetherill ..are you out there?
User avatar
dgym
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 353
Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: Peter +2 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:49 am

I left the solenoid in situ primarily to appear original and to allow easy backward install of the original type starter.

I realised an added benefit of doing so, is that your left with a convenient power source for your timing light / stroboscope. Keeping the big terminal was certainly a bonus as the timing light crocodile clip connectors were to big to attached elsewhere.


Peter
1968 +2 BRM
Peter +2
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 259
Joined: 26 May 2010

PostPost by: peteleo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:07 pm

I assume we're talking about a Lucas type pre-engaged starter. The solenoid is two-fold it operates as a relay and also throws the gear pinion forward. Use an inertia type starter with a separate solenoid or an after market starter internal solenoid.
peteleo
New-tral
 
Posts: 12
Joined: 12 Jul 2016
Location: San Mateo, California

PostPost by: billwill » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:19 am

The original solenoid is needed if you have ballasted ignition coil.
Bill Williams

36/6725 S3 Coupe OGU108E Yellow over Black.
billwill
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4604
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: London UK

PostPost by: Bigbaldybloke » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:32 pm

I’d be tempted to remove the solenoid but fit a battery isolator switch there in its place, easy to access when working on any electrics under the bonnet, easy to access in emergency, just pop the bonnet rather than rummage in the boot (probably hidden behind all sorts if you are like me and carry a load of stuff in the boot).
You don’t have to have the solenoid if you have the reduced voltage coil, just a suitable feed from the starter terminal on the ignition switch.
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine!
Bigbaldybloke
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 610
Joined: 16 May 2017
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPost by: Slowtus » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:44 pm

For years I've been concerned about the proximity of the solenoid to the rear carburetor, in the case of a frontal impact accident or maybe even the solenoid vibrating loose. I installed a high torque stater on my Super Safety a couple of years ago and the old lump solenoid excused himself and left the table and I feel much safer. Fire terrifies me!

Roger


It used to terrify me too but once you have been through one, you get to be pretty nonchalant about the whole thing :D

before

before.jpg and


after

after.jpg and
Slowtus
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 172
Joined: 22 Sep 2017
Location: Canada

PostPost by: 2cams70 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:59 pm

Get rid of the original solenoid! You don't need it. It just becomes an extra source of resistance in the starter supply. Colin Chapman would not approve of having extra junk in the circuit that could be done without! If you need to switch the ballast resistance circuit you can do so with a much smaller and lighter general purpose automotive relay instead of one designed to switch a couple of hundred amps.
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
Peugeot 505 GTI Wagons (5spdx1) (Autox1)
2015 Honda City 5spd.
2cams70
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 722
Joined: 10 Jun 2015
Location: Australia
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests