Lotus Elan

Correct engine block for early S2 wanted

PostPost by: avro » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:20 am

rgh0 wrote:I continue to be confused by the very specific needs for a very specific block Lotus serial number from a very specific period over stamped with a 3020 block type number not from that period and then the intention to build it as a later block type anyhow ???

....but the thread drift has been valuable as the discussion continues to develop and understand of the how Lotus used Ford blocks of various casting type numbers over the years.

cheers
Rohan


Hello Rohan

I have about thirty Lotus cylinder blocks and a few of the 120E pushrod blocks . Some of the Lotus blocks will be the later 681F or the 701M types but there are quite a few of the earlier castings. If l can find some time over the next few days l could compile a list of all the date markings and block types if that would be of interest to you.
Some do have some odd numbers or sub codes cast into or stamped above the main 6015BA and some have the B ground away within this sequence. What it all means l haven’t a clue.
Some of the blocks (67 ish) that are overstamped 3020 do not have a casting modification to facilitate the use of a dipstick at the rear, but the later ones of this type will have in preparation for the introduction of the Twin Cam Escort, as it ran with a rear bowl sump. As the later 681F type blocks had the stronger square main bearing caps fitted perhaps some of these additional markings denote certain changes within a casting type. Over the years l have come across some odd ones, such as the 701M block with COSWORTH cast into the side and some early blocks (with screw in pick up pipes ) that also have the L” cast into the side.

Cheers
Nick
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PostPost by: Certified Lotus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:14 am

I’m surprised no one (who has such interests) has been able to identify and talk to a past employee at Ford who was involved in the casting of these engine blocks. We seem to be able to find Lotus employees from the era, why not a Ford foundry guy who knows all the details?
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:16 am

Hi Nick

A list of the various blocks you have with their casting dates and what variations in casting numbers and whats been ground off or not would be very interesting. Lots of people make lots of assertions but until you actually analyse whats there on the blocks its always hard to tell whats real and what is misleading.

Not many people have much of a stock of the 1500 blocks be they originally used by Lotus or by Ford so your blocks are an interesting look into history that's now hard to find.

cheers
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:19 am

I agree its strange that there appears to be no one known from the era who actually built the twin cams or work at Ford on the castings over the period of interest from early 60's to early 70's. They must be out there somewhere.

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Rohan
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PostPost by: gino1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:33 pm

Hi Rohan,
I used to work in a large motor manufacturing company that had its own foundry that used to cast blocks for lots of other manufacturers too, so it just maybe that these particular blocks were cast outside of Ford.

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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:02 pm

I think all the Kent blocks were cast by Ford. Some of the 2 litre Pinto blocks however I believe were cast outside of Ford. I've seen some of these with an "EB" stylized motif in the wall which probably is the trademark of the casting company. I've also seen this "EB" symbol on some BMW engine blocks.
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PostPost by: pharriso » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:25 pm

I worked at the Dagenham Engine Plant in the Fall of 1980 in QC as part of my training program ex-Uni. Close but no cigar, by this time all Twink activity was long gone...

At this time the plant was machining Blocks for Fiestas (Kent engine), Cortinas (Pinto/SOHC), Capris/Granada (V6 Essex) & the Dover diesel engine. All blocks were cast in the local foundry. It was a noisy, dirty place!

One of the exercises I had to do was take a Kent off the end of the line, strip it down, measure everything, re-assemble it & make sure it passed the dyno test. If it failed I would have to fix it until it passed...

I then went on to spent 5 years in Engine test at Dunton, the Ford research & engineering centre in the UK. I have a set of 711m block drawings somewhere...

Unfortunately I do not have any old contacts involved with crossflow blocks, either in engineering or manufacturing & it's a long time ago now.
Last edited by pharriso on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: types26/36 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:05 pm

I lived in S.Africa for 30 years and worked for a Ford dealership in the 70's for a while, the S.African Kent blocks were cast at Fords plant in Port Elizabeth but this was of course the 711 type 1600/1300/1100 and then later the 831C blocks, the pre Xflow blocks were long out of production by this time and S.Africa was the last place still to manufacture and use the Kent blocks until the mid 90's.
I was in contact with various people and on Ford forums where I picked up the below bit of information which may be of interest in the greater scheme of things.
Quote from an email/forum .........cant remember which as it a long time ago:
================================================================================
Quote:
Yes, these blocks are manufactured in South Africa and bear the 831C prefix, The large starburst casting marks are also present on the side of the block. I am almost certain the AX designation is merely the spec for the cast iron the foundry used. There is a type A and a type AX. These blocks just had that info cast in which is a sure fire way of identifying one. SA did not use these for Diesels but the UK may have. I was employed by FMC engine plant in Port Elizabeth for a while and got to speak to many people who had spent a lifetime working there. Murray and Roberts foundries, also in Port Elizabeth did the casting job and the block was machined by Ford. Many of these spec blocks were used in local cars until the Kent was discontinued in 1993 or thereabouts. the engine plant struggled on for a few years making 3.0 and 3.4 Essex engines, these kent blocks for Motorsport and customers such as Vegantune and doing remans. + other odd jobs until the RoCam order came through. I managed to fish from the bin a complete set of detailed manufacturing and machining drawings for the Kent engine (the block alone is 6 sheets of A0!). Two months before I arrived they disposed of the tool to cast them which was returned from the foundry, BUMMER! Kent blocks are getting scarce even here but one can occasionally find 831C blocks for good money. Some of them had to be reworked in plant as the pushrod bores were incorrectly machined, they should be at a 4° angle to the vertical (bore), these faulty blocks had the pushrod bores overbored and a sleeve was fitted before remachining. 831C's can still be found on 84 and up 1.6 Sierras and Sapphires and overboring to 85mm is dead easy. I use one on my 1600 BDA.
End of Quote.
===========================================================================

Another question I have never seen answered is which Ford block was used by Lotus with the casting number ground off leaving an "L" ........I am not talking about the "L" on the inlet side between the mounting, I am talking about at the end of the casting number ...... see two pictures.
Non of the Ford blocks I have ever seen with the the un-ground number had this L, it does not appear on the120E, 2731, 681 or the 701 blocks.

Another query is, was there ever a block with 122E cast into it? although it is often mentioned as being a rare Lotus block I have never seen one and think a 118E/122E is actually a 120E block used for GT Cosair/Cortina engines and the 118E/ 122E was just Fords way of identifying a GT from a standard 1500 engine.
Has anyone ever seen 122E cast into a block?
Just my take on the topic..............
Attachments
2731.jpg and
l-casting-2.jpg and
l-casting.jpg and
116e.jpg and
120e.jpg and
681.jpg and
701.jpg and
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:39 am

People who think they can make a period correct block just by grinding off the "3020" for example are kidding themselves. Best leave the block unbutchered. It's worth more that way - to someone else if not you. Ford blocks have a date code cast into them indicating the date of manufacture. See picture attached of the date code on my 681F block. This indicates a date of manufacture of 16/12/69. Note that Ford used the same codes on other cast components such as diff carriers.

I'd be interested to know the date codes on those block where the "L" is located next to the block part number casting rather than under the RHS engine mount. Perhaps these blocks were early "L"s where Ford had not yet decided the best place to cast the "L".

I've never seen a pushrod engine with an "L" in that location

http://fordclassics.com/date-codes
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PostPost by: types26/36 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:49 am

2cams70 wrote:I'd be interested to know the date codes on those blocks where the "L" is located next to the block part number casting rather than under the RHS engine mount. Perhaps these blocks were early "L"s where Ford had not yet decided the best place to cast the "L".
I've never seen a pushrod engine with an "L" in that location


2cams,
Here are some more pictures of one of the "L" block showing the date stamp etc, it cant be explained that it was a block pre-dating to the large "L" on the inlet side as it has that L as well and the LB on the front face.
The engine number is in the 37xx range (I have blocked a couple of numbers) and note it has an gauge oil feed below the numbers, it was from a 1965 mk1 Lotus Cortina.
Attachments
lb-on-eng.jpg and
date-code-copy.jpg and
l-on-eng-copy.jpg and
eng-number-copy.jpg and
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PostPost by: avro » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:57 pm

rgh0 wrote:Hi Nick

A list of the various blocks you have with their casting dates and what variations in casting numbers and whats been ground off or not would be very interesting. Lots of people make lots of assertions but until you actually analyse whats there on the blocks its always hard to tell whats real and what is misleading.

Not many people have much of a stock of the 1500 blocks be they originally used by Lotus or by Ford so your blocks are an interesting look into history that's now hard to find.

cheers
Rohan


Hello Rohan,

A few more Lotus blocks than I thought I had !!

--------------------------------Date

1= XXXX6015----------- 4B14
2= XXXXXXXX --------- 4E7
3= XXXXXXXX L---- -- 5A27-- L both at the end of the Type number and within engine mount ( rare )
4= XXXXXXXX -------- 5M30
5= XXXX6015 --------- 5J27
6= XXXX6015 --------- 6F24
7= XXXXXXXX --------- 6J6
8= 3020 6015 ---------- 7F13
9= 3020 6015 ----------- 7F8
10= 3020 6015 ---------- 7G4
11= 3020 6015 ----------- 8A3
12= 3020E 6015 ---- --- 8A26
13= 120E 6015 --------- 8B2-- 1968 block, first sequence of numbers ground away and stamped 120E
14= 125 6015 ----------- 8D1-- 1968 block, first sequence of numbers ground away and stamped 125
15= 3020E 6015 -------- 8F2
16= 3020 6015 ------ --- 8G1
17= 3020 6015 ---------- 8G12
18= 681F 6015BA ------ 8J26
19= 681F 6015NA ------- 8J26-- B ground away and overstamped
20= 681F 6015NA------- 8K20-- B ground away and overstamped , additional N cast into block just above
21= 681F 6015GA------- 8L8-- B ground away and overstamped
22= 681F 6015-A ------- 8M18-- B ground away and overstamped
23= 681F 6015NA ------ 9A20-- B ground away and overstamped
24= 681F 6015NA------- 9D1-- B ground away and overstamped
25= 681F 6015GA ------ 9D28-- B ground away and overstamped
26= 681F 6015NA ------ 9F2-- B ground away cast in N and additional stamped G below
27= 681F 6015NA------- 9H25-- B ground away and overstamped
28= 681F 6015BA ------ 9J26--
29= 681F 6015NA------- 9K14 -- B ground away and overstamped
30= 681F 6015 NA------ 9K15 -- B ground away and overstamped
31= 701M6015BA------- 0M29
32= 701M6015EA ------ 1A2-- B ground away and overstamped
33= 701M6015EA ------ 1A10-- B ground away and overstamped
34= 701M6015BA------- 1A15
35= 701M6015BA ------ 2C10
36= 701M6015BA------- 1M19
37= 701M6015BA------- 3J17

Block No3, a 1965 casting has had all the numbers ground away but has an L left cast into the block. It also has the large L cast into the side. I see that Brian (types 28/36 ) has also pictured one. Very unusual when its generally accepted that the "L" block was introduced in 1967.
Block No 13 &14, although later blocks that would be used with the 6 bolt crank, have for some reason had their original numbers ground away and earlier number stamped into them.
The last four 701M Lotus blocks are part of four complete 1500 unused pre crossflow engines. They were purchased from an Army Surplus Sale. Quite why the Ministry of Defence had a use for Pre Crossflow engines post 1973 is anybody's guess.

Hope this helps with your research,

cheers
Nick
Last edited by avro on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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PostPost by: types26/36 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:41 pm

avro wrote:
rgh0 wrote:Block No3, a 1965 casting has had all the numbers ground away but has an L left cast into the block. It also has the large L cast into the side. I see that Brian (types 28/36 ) has also pictured one. Very unusual when its generally accepted that the "L" block was introduced in 1967.cheersNick


Wow .......that is a fair old collection of blocks........ and I thought I was a hoarder :lol:
Here is another one with the "L" left in the casting also with the large "L" on the inlet side, I dont have a date code for this one but the engine number pre dates the 37XX range having a number in the 31XX range so presumably late 64 or early 65?
Attachments
img_0241-copy.jpg and
img_0242-copy.jpg and
img_0243-copy.jpg and
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:14 pm

Hi Nick

Thanks for that list of blocks its certainly the best bit of history of block types versus dates that exists. Is it possible to add approximate engine number range for each block and whether the blocks have the L in the engine mount.

i presume all the later 681F and 701M blocks have the L, its which earlier blocks they appear on ?

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Rohan
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PostPost by: Fredtech » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:17 pm

Guys, possibly a little late to this particular conversation, but whilst we have the experts here:-

Anyone know why some blocks have "Skinny" L castings, and other have "Fat" ones ?.
And another oddity, a block with "Dimples" in the L
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skinny-l.jpg and
fat-l-701m6015ba-2.jpg and
dimple-l.jpg and
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PostPost by: ArnoCaterham » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:41 pm

Hi, There are a few blocks with numbers on www.Caterham.nl

Kind regards, Arno
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