Lotus Elan

fuel injection

PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:39 pm

having looked around,does anyone recomend a fuel injection system for the beloved twink, and what problems could arise? i will be putting in a new tank with larger fuel lines and a return,using an electric pump with filters, any thing else im missing.
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PostPost by: elansprint » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:36 pm

Paul if you are having a tank made make sure they fit a swirl pot in the bottom to stop fuel surge at low fuel levels. You will need a fuel pressure regulator on the end of the fuel rail also.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:57 am

Thanks Ian,good point.i found a bloke near watford that looks good on price ill put it too him.any type of system you recomend?
Paul.
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PostPost by: gerrym » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:38 pm

Paul, QED used to "convert" the Twink to Fuel injection.

Not sure which part of the fuel injection "system" you are looking for.

Probably help to treat as subsystems:-

1./ Fuel supply including high pressure (say around 2-3 bar) pump, filter, supply return pipes, modified tank to prevent air entering system (or external swirl pot etc). Most of this needs to be integrated into the car itself, don't underestimate time required to get the pipes installed neatly, leak free etc

2/ Fuel injection on engine hardware, such as throttle bodies, fuel injectors, fuel rail, air filter,

3/ Control system (or ECU) and sensors, are you also going for an integrated electronic ignition and are you going to measure crank position, will you use a lambda sensor etc, will your throttle body setup have a reliable throttle position sensor, water temperature sensors etc

4/ Setup and calibration, eg rolling road sessions

Not sure that any one supplier is going to provide all of the above

Regards

Gerry
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PostPost by: curly type 26 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:09 pm

Have look at jenvey throttle bodies. web site covers rails regulators prices ect
Emerald Ecu they have all you need for ecu, harness, sensors & rolling road have a good look at there website they are in norfolk
Axminster alloy tanks they are the dogs b***o*ks
Qed steel flywheel with machined teeth for crank sensor or can supply toothed pulley a cheaper & easier option but you should still be looking to balance new components to crank assey with either choice.
Also if you head for a lamda you wont be able to use additives or leaded fuel
I am sure there are plenty of different opinions out there particullarly on ecu.
Have fun Curly :D
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PostPost by: pauljones » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:33 pm

basicly i think i got a rusting tank that lead to crud in the fuel lines,the obvious happened on a busy dorset road with me looking a prat..!!
so rather than spend all the money on a new tank,lines ect and keep the carbs,ill treat her to an EFI set up,so im looking for the lot in a nice neat tried and tested package.id rather prefer a one stop shop for the lot so i can fit it all and take it back for setting up once done.

having tried various sugeted sites,it may not be that easy.

thanks for all the advice so far.

paul
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PostPost by: elansprint » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:59 pm

Paul it will be a fairly expensive exercise to buy a complete package i believe QED do a setup & weber do complete kits mapped but not sure they do one for the twincam. John Clegg has a nice set up on his +2 using bike throttle bodies & a megasquirt ecu this is a nice little system at low cost but will involve a bit of messing about by yourself we are just fitting one to a blacktop zetec at present
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PostPost by: memnon » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:01 pm

Hello,
It all depends how much work you want to put in, you can buy a kit from emerald www.emerald3d.com. It'll cost around £2k. I sourced the components myself including some second hand jenvey's & ECU. I am at about £1500 and will probably spend the next £500-£1k (paying some one else) to get it running. This is mostly because I ran out of time (space) and I could sell my car, or pay to get it built. So I chose to get it built.

I am doing this on the back of a full rebuild of the car, so the engine mods are easy at this point.

Talk to Andy Wiltshire about the tank, top bloke and excellent quality product; he knows how a FI tank for the Elan should be.

I have been watching John Clegg's posts, but I don't have the time to spend on doing it myself right now. John seems to have learnt a lot and usually shares information and help.

Tony Thompson reckons that going this route adds a lot of torque at the bottom end, to me thats a bonus, I want predictable performance everytime I drive without any flat spots without having to spend the same money as going FI letting some specialist set it 100% correctly for 500 miles!

Hope that helps,

Jason Farmer
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PostPost by: pauljones » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:03 pm

Hi all, i didn't realise TTR did EFI but i sent a request to him for info,as has been said how much work do i want to do,well im in Germany and the cars in south uk,so i want to turn up and fit the lot in as little time as poss,with a map that will at least start and run with some degree of accuracy.The increase in torque is what im after as i got a 5 speed box and a 3.54 diff unit,but once fitted will be rolling roaded and the results put on here,so i cant hide the truth and may help others in the same situation.

Paul
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PostPost by: memnon » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:26 pm

TTR don't but, he has experience of cars that do.

Just buy the kit from emerald3d, crank pulley and sensor bracket from QED, tank from andy wiltshire (axminster ...) and follow emerald's advice on getting the parts that they don't sell.

Thats the only way i can see you doing it as you suggest!

Jason
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PostPost by: dougweall » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:01 pm

Bogg Bros in North Yorkshire do a very nice bike carb conversion.

http://www.boggbros.co.uk/gallery6.html

I have seen this car it looks superb. I believe they charged something in the order of £600 all in.

Probably not what is required on this thread, just wandering a little.
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PostPost by: jono » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:57 am

I spoke with Bogg Bros about injection and they don't get involved but as said they do a nice line in bike carb conversions.

I am going down the FI route and have done a lot of research and whichever way you look at it, if you want to use proprietary parts, it's a £2.5k job. If you are happy to tinker and fabricate, build a megasquirt etc. it can be done for quite a bit less but I have neither the time nore the expertise to do that. Also, I figure life is short and with cash in the bank earning less than inflation why not help the economic recovery :lol:

It's worth trying these guys who came highly recommended by my engine builder. They seemed quite reasonable cost wise when I approached them about doing a twinc conversion. They can supply and fit everything and also map the engine on the bench if required so that you have a complete turnkey unit:

http://www.exon-engines.co.uk

Jon
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PostPost by: gerrym » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:58 pm

Paul, hi.

I can second Emerald's helpfulness in terms of advice and supplying kit.

My own view is that if you are fitting electronic fuel injection and ignition you really are facing getting the engine out to set it all up properly, mechanically as well as electronically.

Don't underestimate the time it will take to run a larger size fuel line from the injection pump to the fuel rail and back again to the tank or swirl pot. The injection pump will need a filter upstream if it is to last. The fuel rail will need a fine filter to protect the injectors. If you are building everthing in super clean condition you may decide to combine both filters in the filter upstream of the injection pump. The obvious place to run the line might be along the underbody, but the Elan is too low, there are no crevices to protect the lines in, other than those close to the exhaust. Inside the body???. Otherwise inside the chassis backbone as per Zetec but you will probably need to get the body off to get proper access. Don't use plastic fuel pipe. At the pressure and flow rates you will generate in a fuel injection system you run a risk of static burn through. The OEMs know what they are doing when they use plastic, we should stick to conductive and hopefully corrosion resistant metallic fuel lines.

I guess the point of my post is to count on quite an involved project. Definitely not a weekend job. The bits that the suppliers will sell you are the easy bits

Regards

Gerry
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:45 pm

Running Fuel injection in my Elan is something I also have in the back of my mind & I've already decided that the quickest way to route the Fuel lines would be to use Metallic ones under the Carpet alongside the Transmission Tunnel.
Initial thoughts were to run them through the Body under the Doors but the possibility of severe damage through side impact turned me away from that solution.
As Gerry mentioned; running the Lines within the Backbone would really entail taking the Body off & to be honest I'm not very happy about having the present Fuel line in there with a Propshaft whirling around.

Cheers
John
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PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:30 pm

where do i start,

it seems the idea of a weekend project is well out the window,i was planing an about a week to be honest and about 2-3k,that was to take out the engine and change the bits to allow the 5 speed box to be fitted too.yes,including fitting the new tank and lines.time for a re think.

as a point,id like to thank all for the advice.but not wanting to offend anyone some times you just have to bite the bullet and go with what you have,or ill spend all evening researching different companys and waiting for replies,and ill never get the job done.that said it is a BIG job,bigger than what i thought and i want to do it 1,properly so i can pass the info onto others in the forum, 2, at a price thats best value and 3,so i can put real dyno results on the post so others know what will be the result of spending hard earned cash.

So im thinking wait for the replies and make a move,but i dont think it will be done over my xmas holidays,sorry.

thanks for the help so far and if anyone has dyno results,can i see them with an engine spec please.

regards to all and happy xmas

Paul
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