Lotus Elan

Sprint wheels tyres and innertubes

PostPost by: bloodknock » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:51 pm

Hello folks
What are the views on the use of innertubes?
When my new tyres (175/70 VR13 pirelli cinturatos CN36 - Longstone) were fitted I elected to have innertubes installed. When it came to balancing the wheels, they seemed to require an inordinate amount of balance weights, one in fact, was borderline in being able to be balanced.
I may have made a mistake in electing to have the stick on variety rather than the rim fitment, in fact, having brought them home to fit on the car I found that the stick on weights on at least one wheel had unstuck!
The wheels are original, but have been shot blasted and re powder coated, they were checked to be true, the car and thus the wheels had only ever covered less than 30k miles.
So the questions are:
Could the use of innertubes adversly affect the wheel balance?
Would the wheels balance better using clip on rim weights?

All info would be gratefully received
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Bob
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:23 pm

everything counts when balancing, but I would think rims and tires are the dominant factor. If you have somewhat unbalanced rims (as quantified by running them without tires on the machine), and you'd prefer minimize the amount of weights, you may want to ask the tire shop to try different tire position on the rim in case a tire unbalance may compensate, at least partially, rim unbalance, rather than adding to it (tire quality or wear may result in a significant amount of tire unbalance).
It takes an understanding technician, and probably pay a bit more, but on an Elan it is worth taking care of the best balance one can get (and of course making sure one does not lose any of the weight - to be sure down the road it may be useful to document the result of the balancing for each wheel).
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PostPost by: bloodknock » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:43 pm

That sounds sensible. The only issue is finding a tyre man who is savvy. I'll try balancing without tubes, they were my first thought on the problem.
I know the wheels are true, they were checked by a very competent machine shop.
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:00 pm

yes, but true is one thing, being balanced is an other (marginally, I agree)

One recurrent problem I have with my wheels is losing the weights... Chapman part syndrom I guess.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:05 pm

Have the Dot marking on the tyres been followed?
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PostPost by: bloodknock » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:41 pm

I have no idea! please explain.
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PostPost by: alan.barker » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:18 pm

Imho on the original Steel Rims it's best to use clip on Weights.
It would be nice to know how your Car drives with 175/70 Tyres on Standard Rims.
I would think the Steering would be heavy and you would be better off with 155/80 as original.
Please don't get me wrong as on my Sprint i have 155/80 original size and the Steering is so light and agreable.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:20 pm

Tyres have marking to indicate the heavy part of the tyre if correctly fitted should be placed relative to the valve. Plenty about this on the usual search engines.
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PostPost by: alan.barker » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:58 am

Thanks,
just read the info and good reading.
So the yellow dot is the light spot and should be next to the Valve.
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PostPost by: bloodknock » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:34 am

Hello gents
Ive just searched every millimeter for coloured dots on my Longstone Cinturatos....Zip! not a sign of a dot fron or back. So i guess its trial and error.
Think i'll remove the inner tubes and replace the stick on weights with rim clip weights first and see if that helps.
Thanks everyone for your help.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:17 pm

This indicates to me that an important step has been omitted from the quality control process.
As a premium tyre, in price anyway, I would expect only the highest quality in every area.
I understand that tubes should only be fitted to tyres designed for tubes, reason being that inner tubes are porous and over time there can be a build up of air between the tube and a sealed tubeless tyre.
Tyre creep on the rim can cause pulling of the inner tube valve, although apparently modern rubber compounds grip the rim far more.
FWIW
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PostPost by: 69S4 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:20 pm

Craven wrote:I understand that tubes should only be fitted to tyres designed for tubes, reason being that inner tubes are porous and over time there can be a build up of air between the tube and a sealed tubeless tyre.
Tyre creep on the rim can cause pulling of the inner tube valve, although apparently modern rubber compounds grip the rim far more.
FWIW


A couple weeks ago I had a long chat with one of the technical managers from Continental tyres and asked him specifically if ther was an issue with using tubes inside tubeless tyres (particularly with regard to the ‘ridges’ you can feel inside the tyre). His response was that as long as you remove any stickers or labels there are no problems. Ok, this was at a motorcycle event but, with the Elan in mind, I asked about car tyres. His response was the same - no issues.

I’d have thought any air getting between the tube and the tyre inner would get out around the valve stem - is that not the case.? My experience with tube creep is that it’s only an issue with very low pressures. Off road bike riders often leave the outer locknut loose so they can see if the valve tips over at an angle rather than have the it rip out. I’ve seen it happen on my Elan and then found the pressure was below 10psi :oops:
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:02 pm

Craven wrote:This indicates to me that an important step has been omitted from the quality control process.
As a premium tyre, in price anyway, I would expect only the highest quality in every area.
I understand that tubes should only be fitted to tyres designed for tubes, reason being that inner tubes are porous and over time there can be a build up of air between the tube and a sealed tubeless tyre.
Tyre creep on the rim can cause pulling of the inner tube valve, although apparently modern rubber compounds grip the rim far more.
FWIW


I don't think so, when using a tube in a tubeless rim, the valve of the tube does not seal at the rim.

I was told the main source of danger is when the tire gets deflated (leak or puncture) the risk would come from the tire rotating at some point and tearing off the valve, which would lead to a catastrophic deflating... I do it nevetherless on occasion (cars and bikes), never torned a valve so far.
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PostPost by: richardcox_lotus » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:18 pm

I’ve gone through - I think - 3 inner tubes over about 18 years.

In all cases it was due to internal ridges on the tyre rubbing it’s way through the tube.

I was using Dunlop tyres in those days, am not on them anymore.

Always the rears, funnily enough!

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PostPost by: Citromike » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:26 pm

I suggest you remove the tubes and try again.

In addition to a couple Elans, I have 2 Citroen 2CVs which run 125R15 or 135R15 tires. My pal Chris has insisted on using inner tubes, while I have happily run without them for 25 years on various cars.

IF you don't need them, don't fit them (certainly Colin's philosophy).

Just make sure your tires are from a reputable manufacturer, aired up properly, and not too old. Here's what happened to him last week on the way to Palm Springs - a 20-yr old Camac tire.

Image

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