Lotus Elan

Q plates

PostPost by: Spyder fan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:13 pm

I think that I may have some peace of mind for Spyder spaceframe owners.

Its to do with "substantial changes" with regards to Q plates and the new MOT exemption

Spyder made their spaceframe within 10 years of the end of production of the Elan and Plus 2
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... le-changes

Acceptable changes
It does not count as a ‘substantial change’ if:

changes are made to preserve a vehicle because the original type parts are no longer reasonably available

they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production

and the next part covers the suspension etc
axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance
changes were made to vehicles that were previously used as commercial vehicles, and you can prove the changes were made when the vehicle was used commercially
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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:25 pm

Once again from the official government website.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... t-vehicles

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine



I think we are covered?
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:46 pm

Spyder fan wrote:I think that I may have some peace of mind for Spyder spaceframe owners.

Its to do with "substantial changes" with regards to Q plates and the new MOT exemption

Spyder made their spaceframe within 10 years of the end of production of the Elan and Plus 2
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... le-changes

Acceptable changes
It does not count as a ‘substantial change’ if:

changes are made to preserve a vehicle because the original type parts are no longer reasonably available

they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production

and the next part covers the suspension etc
axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance
changes were made to vehicles that were previously used as commercial vehicles, and you can prove the changes were made when the vehicle was used commercially

Isn't that Historic status for the Mot?

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles
"You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:

it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)"

SECOND HAND???
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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Grizzly wrote:Isn't that Historic status for the Mot?


What's the difference? You can't have one without the other.......

Any comments on the other post regarding Q plates?

I have done research and presented it with evidence of my source material which is the current government DVLA website.

Are you able to present your case in the same manner?
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:54 pm

Read what it says in the correct section........

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but are not kit conversions."

"Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame."

"Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)"

Seems there needs to be some clarification, but this is one you need to treat carefully (already one Elan owner with burnt fingers)
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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:29 pm

Chris
Both my posts above relate to otherwise standard cars that have a Spyder chassis fitted. Posted in order to give owners some peace of mind.

Radically altered vehicles are a different subject which does require clarification, I haven't finished my research on that, as I stated earlier today it could take some time, but I'm confident that there is some middle ground that is acceptable to the licensing authorities and suitable for those of us who like to make things bespoke.

I believe that Norman Luptons article in CLN refers to a car that had no V5 and was previously unknown to the DVLA, wrong procedure followed to try and register it no doubt.
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PostPost by: Orsom Weels » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:29 pm

Spyder fan wrote:
Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)
You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

suspension (front and back)
steering assembly
axles (both)
transmission
engine



I think we are covered?


From the above; "a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original"

As I said in my earlier post, I believe A Syder stressed skin replacement chassis would present no problems, as it is a virtual copy of the original Lotus item. I suppose it depends on how you define 'same specification', but to me, a box section space frame with completely revised suspension etc is definitely not to the same spec as the original Lotus item & would count as at least two points against (chassis & suspension, possibly steering as well). An original space frame built to original Lotus dimensions & to take all the original Lotus parts is the grey area, it's built to be a direct replacement, but to a completely different design. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt, don't know about the DVLA. Given that any inspection would most likely be carried out by an appointed club representative, there's probably not too much to worry about.

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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:49 pm

Tim,
You only need to use the original body to retain the registration, if you do this then the chassis does not get into the equation.

Note the list states for motorbikes 2 options, the original frame or a new one of the exact type, not both as that would hardly make sense. The first two items in the list are options for cars either the original body or chassis OR a new body or chassis to the original design. It's actually quite generous in it's scope. probably best to follow the link and view the list on the original website as it loses the bullet points on here.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:07 pm

Alan, you can't have it both ways, if it's a monocoque the dvla's definition is "monocoque bodyshell (Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame)" and they are so ott about it even a second hand chassis flags according to what the web site says...... it's very specific.
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PostPost by: elanfan1 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:08 pm

What if your car doesn’t have its original gel coat then? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Sorry I couldn’t resist.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:11 pm

elanfan1 wrote:What if your car doesn’t have its original gel coat then? :shock: :shock: :shock:

Sorry I couldn’t resist.

I think they issue it with a Certificate of Destruction :twisted:
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:17 pm

For all those who have spyder space frames, just don't tell the dvla or have an engineers report done for what ever reason (Don't crash it ;) )....... that simple!! I'm not sure how you would stand when you sell the car on but hey things might have changed again by then.
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PostPost by: Orsom Weels » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:28 pm

Spyder fan wrote:Tim,
You only need to use the original body to retain the registration, if you do this then the chassis does not get into the equation.

Note the list states for motorbikes 2 options, the original frame or a new one of the exact type, not both as that would hardly make sense. The first two items in the list are options for cars either the original body or chassis OR a new body or chassis to the original design. It's actually quite generous in it's scope. probably best to follow the link and view the list on the original website as it loses the bullet points on here.


Sorry Alan, IF the original body is retained, & the original engine, suspension, steering, axles etc, there should be no problems, even with a std spec space frame. However, a space frame with Spyders modded suspension etc would loose enough points, even with the original body. We are given strict guidelines by the DVLA of what we have to look for when doing a vehicle inspection & MAJOR COMPONENTS deviating from original is amongst them, we have to make that known in the forms we send back to DVLA. We are also supposed to take rubbings & photo's of all stamped numbers for comparison to original size/font/positioning etc, & comment on whether we feel they are 'Standard'. 'Difficult to read', Non typical' or 'Missing' for those that we just can't find. The rubbings & photo's are kept on record.

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PostPost by: Grizzly » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:46 pm

Tim, I know it's a collection of points but the first paragraph of this taken from the Gov website would make me worry if i had a Space frame. It sounds like those first five points are a 'must'.
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PostPost by: Orsom Weels » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:59 pm

As I said earlier, a lot depends on how you interpret things. I would have no problem signing off a Spyder stressed skin chassis as 'new unmodified', I would also give a std spec space frame the benefit of the doubt, but a later space frame with altered suspension & engine mounts etc would be a stretch too far, as so much else is non std. If inspected & reported correctly, it would without doubt get a 'Q' plate.

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