Lotus Elan

Twin Cam - Crossflow Oil Sump

PostPost by: J J DIKKE » Tue May 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Hello all,
I really hope someone can help. Has anyone ever heard of a guy called Jim Zail, probably in the USA. We think he made and or modified twin cam/crossflow sump pans in the past.

I am trying to find and maybe purchase a twin cam/crossflow sump (but not pre crossflow) with a rear bowl, suitable for fitting to a MK 1 Escort.

I do not want a big wing sump, nor do I want a standard twin cam sump, rather what I would like is a wider than standard rear bowl sump.

Really hope someone can help with pointers and or ideas.

Thank you
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:35 am

Why do you require a special purpose sump for fitment to a Mk1 Escort? Can't you just use a standard Escort sump? An Elan/Cortina front bowl sump will not fit an Escort which requires a rear bowl sump. Capri sumps are rear bowl too but still won't fit an Escort because a different profile is required for clearance to the steering rack. An Escort Mexico/Twin Cam/RS1600 big wing sump would seem ideal although they are quite expensive and rare these days.
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PostPost by: J J DIKKE » Wed May 22, 2019 11:25 am

Hello
Thank you for your reply, allow me to further explain. Whilst I do not need a special purpose sump I would like a sump pan that looks visually different and more aesthetically pleasing to myself.

I have both a rear bowl Crossflow sump and a rear bowl twin cam sump however I do not like the visual appearance of either of these. I definitely do not want a big wing sump and you are correct in saying that these are quite rare and expensive, however, in my situation that is immaterial as it is not what I am seeking to achieve.

As I am quite new to this site I am unsure if it permissible to post a simple hand drawn diagram of the shape of sump that I am attempting to achieve, maybe you can advise.

Thank you once again for your response and I would appreciate any further help, assistance and guidance yourself and others may be able to offer.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:40 pm

You've got me curious now! Please post a sketch. As far as I know the only rear bowl Twin Cam sump is the big wing sump so I'd be interested too to know what the Twin Cam sump you have looks like.
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PostPost by: J J DIKKE » Fri May 24, 2019 10:41 am

Thank you for your reply, hope this diagram may help clarify the sump shape and design I am seeking.

Sump 1. It is my understanding that this is a standard Crossflow sump rear bowl shape with sloping sides and I have two of these. This is not what I require on my new engine.

Sump 2. It is my understanding that this is a twin cam rear bowl sump with almost straight sides. I believe, but am not certain that this is the shape of sump that is currently fitted to my twin cam engine in my MK 1 Escort. This is also not what I require on my new engine.

Sump 3. Obviously a big wing sump. My understanding is that these are quite rare, expensive and almost everyone appears to like and want one!! This is definitely not what I want on my new engine.

Sump 4. This is the shape and style of sump that I am seeking to find, purchase and or have modified in order to fit this exact shape. It will of course need to be rear bowl and Crossflow (not pre Crossflow) in order that it will bolt straight on to my brand new American Racing 711M 6015 BA block.

Any further help, advice or assistance from yourself would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri May 24, 2019 12:55 pm

There is no Twin Cam rear bowl sump other than the "big wing" type. Excluding those models fitted with the Pinto OHC engine there were only three different types of sump fitted to Escorts. One fitted to 1100/1300cc OHV models, one fitted to non-competition 1600cc OHV models and finally the big wing type to models expected to participate in competition. (Not sure of the MK2 BDA RS1800 though - I've only ever seen one original one of those in the flesh and I wasn't paying much attention to the sump!).

The difference with the 1600cc type compared to the 1100/1300cc type is that it is a little deeper for more oil capacity. It may be slightly wider too in some areas to clear the longer throw crank (unfortunately I don't have one in front of me for reference). The bowl part of it has a flat bottom compared to the 1100/1300 one which is angled and slightly more rounded at the bottom. I expect the normal 1600cc sump is the one you are after. You can fit the 1100/1300cc sump to the 1600 engine but it is not ideal.
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PostPost by: types26/36 » Fri May 24, 2019 2:15 pm

You may find these details of interest.
BTW there was another sump fitted to Ecorts, it had a double bowl with two drain plugs.
I have one and only ever saw them fitted on Automatic Escorts (in S.Africa) although Al (promoter) has an auto escort and he said it does not have the doubled bowled sump :?:
There were also some other sumps fitted to ohv crossflow engines, some with baffle plate and some without, here is one with a strengthening plate that attached to the belhousing fitted on cortina pick ups as I remember, this had no internal baffle.
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Quote: The difference with the 1600cc type compared to the 1100/1300cc type is that it is a little deeper for more oil capacity. It may be slightly wider too in some areas to clear the longer throw crank (unfortunately I don't have one in front of me for reference)"
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That is correct, the 1300 is not relieved for the crank throw (see pic)
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PostPost by: J J DIKKE » Fri May 24, 2019 5:25 pm

Thank you very much. As an amateur I am learning all the time however, I do know what I am trying to achieve. Given the important and knowledgeable information that I have received to date on this forum, I think what I require is a 1500cc or 1600cc Cortina front bowl sump. Does anyone have one available or have knowledge in terms of where I could purchase such an item? I could then seek out a suitably skilled engineer/fabricator who would be able to change this from front to rear bowl suitable for the MK 1 Escort.

Thank you once again.
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PostPost by: promotor » Fri May 24, 2019 6:03 pm

J J DIKKE wrote:Thank you very much. As an amateur I am learning all the time however, I do know what I am trying to achieve. Given the important and knowledgeable information that I have received to date on this forum, I think what I require is a 1500cc or 1600cc Cortina front bowl sump. Does anyone have one available or have knowledge in terms of where I could purchase such an item? I could then seek out a suitably skilled engineer/fabricator who would be able to change this from front to rear bowl suitable for the MK 1 Escort.

Thank you once again.


Beware of turning a front bowl sump around 180 degrees - it could result in you having problems fitting a starter motor. Not saying it definitely won't work, just something to consider.
I believe even the proper Escort big-wing sump made life difficult for starter motor access, hence some seen for sale having had part of one of the "wings" chopped off to make life a little easier.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat May 25, 2019 11:52 am

That twin bowl sump is interesting! Never seen one of those. Automatics and manuals all had the same sump in Australia. One surprising thing that's different between Elans and Escorts is that all the sporting variants of Escort (Mexico/Twin Cam/RS1600) had a factory fitted oil cooler as standard in addition to the large capacity big wing sump. Lotus however deemed it sufficient to just use the standard capacity Cortina sump and no oil cooler in the Elan. Admittedly the front bowl position in the Elan/Cortina probably helps with the cooling a bit but never the less I would have thought an oil cooler would be still be a useful addition in an Elan if it's useful in an Escort with the same engine.
If you wish to source a Cortina sump for your project your best bet is to source one from Ebay or a Ford spares supplier. You don't need a 6 bolt crank / lipseal Cortina sump. An earlier 4 bolt crank / rope seal sump will be much cheaper and you won't be using the part of the sump that surrounds the rear main seal. All crossflow engines are lipseal. Some late pre-crossflow engines are lipseal too but most pre-crossflows are rope seal.
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Sat May 25, 2019 1:19 pm

on the same topic a few years ago

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28539&start=

esp. types26/36 post with photos :

Image

Image

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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat May 25, 2019 2:14 pm

Yes the poster needs a 1500cc Pre-crossflow engine Cortina sump (not a 997/1200/1340cc engine one)
or a 1600cc Crossflow Cortina sump (not a 1300cc one). Only these have the bulged out sides and are the same as the Lotus. Don't ask for a Lotus sump - it's the same as the Cortina. "Lotus" carries at least a 2X price penalty!!! Mk2 1600cc Cortina's were once very common in Australia at least - nobody bought the 1300cc model. For the poster's purpose a 1500cc 4 bolt crank / rope seal sump will be much cheaper because none of you Lotus guys want them because you all want to convert to 6 bolt lipseal cranks!
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
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2015 Honda City 5spd.
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PostPost by: J J DIKKE » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:32 am

Hello All
Thank you to everyone for the interesting information. Does anyone know for certain if the twin bowl sump would also have been fitted to the works twin cam Escort in addition to the automatic cars as previously mentioned and pictured?

Thank you for anything further.
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PostPost by: promotor » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:22 am

J J DIKKE wrote:Hello All
Thank you to everyone for the interesting information. Does anyone know for certain if the twin bowl sump would also have been fitted to the works twin cam Escort in addition to the automatic cars as previously mentioned and pictured?

Thank you for anything further.


Never seen or heard of one fitted. Works Twincam Escorts came with a Mexico / big-wing sump same as the Mk1 Escort Twincam - the difference (as far as I can tell) between a standard big-wing sump and the works big-wing sump is that the works big-wing sump had a dipstick tube welded into the sump on the passengers side rather than the dipstick tube entering through the block on the driver's side.

I still don't understand how that automatic type sump works as the oil pickup doesn't take oil from the front bowl, only from the rear one.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:36 am

promotor wrote:I still don't understand how that automatic type sump works as the oil pickup doesn't take oil from the front bowl, only from the rear one.


Yes - what does the inside of the sump and the oil pickup look like? South African special only. Haven't seen it anywhere else automatic or otherwise. It's not out of one of those south African AX block 1.6 crossflow Sierra's is it?
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
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