Pedal Box Arragement

PostPost by: stelz » Sun Aug 26, 2001 11:32 am

I am converting an American car (LHD) to RHD and was looking at the
pedals and master cylinders tonite. The trouble is I never saw the
car assembled so am kind of guessing at a few details.

Anyway, it seems that the workshop manual doesn't have much detail to
go by, and neither does the Robinshaw and Ross book.

Questions are as follows:

1) Brake master cylinder is the one with the large reservoir ?
Mounted on the left (as viewed by driver) on LHD, with clutch master
on right ? This is due to the shaft being welded to the clutch pedal
with its lever actuating the push rod of the clutch master cylinder.

2) For the RHD, does the same bracket get used for the pedals as for
the LHD ?

3) If the same bracket on RHD, I am guessing that the clutch pedal
will directly actuate the clutch master cylinder and the brake pedal
directly actuate the brake master cylinder. This would mean that the
clutch master cylinder will be on the left and brake on the right for
RHD cars ?

4) Why are the heights of the master cylinders different ? Is it for
different leverage of the pedal onto the master cylinders ?

5) Does anyone have photos of the pedal arrangement for a RHD car
please ?

Thanks,

Ben
1964 S1 in many pieces, some on the right, other on the left.
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PostPost by: Foxie » Sun Aug 26, 2001 2:58 pm

Hi Ben,

I can answer some of your questions, but I don't make sense of what you describe as the shaft being welded to the clutch pedal. Is it seized (a common cause of rebuilding the pedal box) or is it literally welded ?

I am not that familiar with LHD cars, but the pedal layout is the same on anything I have driven, LHD or RHD, ie clutch, brake, accelerator, left to right looking from the driving seat.

The brake cylinder has the larger reservoir.

I have a 1970 Plus 2S. The cylinders are the same height. I had to fabricate a new pedal box as all the pedals were seized on the shaft and the box was rusted out.

I recently acquired a 1968, and whist rebuilding the pedal box as the pedals were again seized on the shaft, I noticed the clutch cylinder was lower due to a shorter lever arm. I guess this was to ease the pedal effort on the clutch, althought why it was changed on later cars I don't know. The longer throw is 3", the shorter is 2 1/16".

I took some photos while rebuilding the box, they are not great but should be of some use. You will see I have reinforced the "bent wire" throttle pedal, and drilled access holes for fitting the clevis pins. Also you can see the alternative under-frame I made up which stiffens and strengthens the mounting of the pedal box in the fibreglass.

I enclose the photos. I haven't downloaded files to the list, anyone tell me how to do this ?

Sean Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:32 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


I am converting an American car (LHD) to RHD and was looking at the
pedals and master cylinders tonite. The trouble is I never saw the
car assembled so am kind of guessing at a few details.

Anyway, it seems that the workshop manual doesn't have much detail to
go by, and neither does the Robinshaw and Ross book.

Questions are as follows:

1) Brake master cylinder is the one with the large reservoir ?
Mounted on the left (as viewed by driver) on LHD, with clutch master
on right ? This is due to the shaft being welded to the clutch pedal
with its lever actuating the push rod of the clutch master cylinder.

2) For the RHD, does the same bracket get used for the pedals as for
the LHD ?

3) If the same bracket on RHD, I am guessing that the clutch pedal
will directly actuate the clutch master cylinder and the brake pedal
directly actuate the brake master cylinder. This would mean that the
clutch master cylinder will be on the left and brake on the right for
RHD cars ?

4) Why are the heights of the master cylinders different ? Is it for
different leverage of the pedal onto the master cylinders ?

5) Does anyone have photos of the pedal arrangement for a RHD car
please ?

Thanks,

Ben
1964 S1 in many pieces, some on the right, other on the left.
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:53 am

Hi Ben

The Pedel assemblies are completely different units, you need a right
hand drive rack and pinnion, a right hand drive pedel assy, and a
right hand drive instrument panel to convert lhd to rhd. The wiring
harness will work for either. The instrument panel will not flip
over, the backbone tunnel is offset about i/4 of an inch in the car.
Your S1 should be cut out for both on the firewall, S4's need to be
re drilled for clutch and brake masters and hand brakes. I did a rhd
to lhd S4 coupe,I may end up doing the reverse on and early S2. let
me know if you need some help, its probably easier to explain on the
phone.

Gary

--- In lotuselan@y..., "Sean Murray" <snmurray@i...> wrote:

it seized (a common cause of rebuilding the pedal box) or is it
literally welded ?

accelerator, left to right looking from the driving seat.

shaft and the box was rusted out.

cylinder was lower due to a shorter lever arm. I guess this was to
ease the pedal effort on the clutch, althought why it was changed on
later cars I don't know. The longer throw is 3", the shorter is 2
1/16".

wire" throttle pedal, and drilled access holes for fitting the
clevis pins. Also you can see the alternative under-frame I made up
which stiffens and strengthens the mounting of the pedal box in the
fibreglass.













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PostPost by: Foxie » Tue Aug 28, 2001 12:12 am

Hi Ben,

Gary is right. While the pedal arrangement clutch/brake/throttle left to right is the same, the offsets on a RHD and LHD pedal assembly will be completely opposite, and so will not be interchangeable.

Sean Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


Hi Ben

The Pedel assemblies are completely different units, you need a right
hand drive rack and pinnion, a right hand drive pedel assy, and a
right hand drive instrument panel to convert lhd to rhd. The wiring
harness will work for either. The instrument panel will not flip
over, the backbone tunnel is offset about i/4 of an inch in the car.
Your S1 should be cut out for both on the firewall, S4's need to be
re drilled for clutch and brake masters and hand brakes. I did a rhd
to lhd S4 coupe,I may end up doing the reverse on and early S2. let
me know if you need some help, its probably easier to explain on the
phone.

Gary

--- In lotuselan@y..., "Sean Murray" <snmurray@i...> wrote:

it seized (a common cause of rebuilding the pedal box) or is it
literally welded ?

accelerator, left to right looking from the driving seat.

shaft and the box was rusted out.

cylinder was lower due to a shorter lever arm. I guess this was to
ease the pedal effort on the clutch, althought why it was changed on
later cars I don't know. The longer throw is 3", the shorter is 2
1/16".

wire" throttle pedal, and drilled access holes for fitting the
clevis pins. Also you can see the alternative under-frame I made up
which stiffens and strengthens the mounting of the pedal box in the
fibreglass.













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PostPost by: stelz » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:27 pm

Thanks for you help.

I have already changed the rack so that is in hand. I have a friend
who has a S4 SE and will have a look this weekend at his pedal box to
copy. Is the S4 and S1 comparable ?

One of the things I have noticed that seems different between the RHD
and LHD is the length of the lever arm on to the master sylinder push
rod. It seems to me that on both LHD and RHD the master cylinder on
the left is higher than the one on the right. The height of the
cylinders effects the lever arm length as the pedal axis is fixed.
Clearly on the RHD the LH master cylinder is the brake, but on my LHD
is the LH master cylinder is the clutch. Thus the lever lenght is
different.

To compensate for this did they change the bore diameter to get the
same hydraulic pressure ? Both my master cylinders are 7/8" in
diameter, but the manual seems to say that the clutch should be
5/8" ? Furthermore, did they use different master cylinder bores with
the different caliper bores. My S1 has the small front calipers
(1.68" dia) and rear (approx 1.3").

Thanks,

Ben


--- In lotuselan@y..., "Sean Murray" <snmurray@i...> wrote:

assembly will be completely opposite, and so will not be
interchangeable.




























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PostPost by: Foxie » Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:40 am

Hi Ben,

I just can't make sense of your set -up. Did some dreaded previous owner concoct this mess ? How can you say "Clearly on the RHD the LH cylinder isthe brake " ? Where are you taking your point of view from ?

Althought the LHD and RHD pedal assemblies are different in all cases the LH (from driver's point of view) cylinder is the clutch, and the RH is thebrake. My clutch cylinders are 5/8" and the brake 0.70" (Plus 2) As I said in previous email, my 1968 Plus 2 has a shorter lever to the clutch cylinder than my 1970 Plus 2S, but the master cylinder bores (5/8") are the same, but I haven't seen this short lever mentioned or commented on anywhere.

Best wishes,

Sean Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


Thanks for you help.
(Snip)
One of the things I have noticed that seems different between the RHD
and LHD is the length of the lever arm on to the master sylinder push
rod. It seems to me that on both LHD and RHD the master cylinder on
the left is higher than the one on the right. The height of the
cylinders effects the lever arm length as the pedal axis is fixed.
Clearly on the RHD the LH master cylinder is the brake, but on my LHD
is the LH master cylinder is the clutch. Thus the lever lenght is
different.

To compensate for this did they change the bore diameter to get the
same hydraulic pressure ? Both my master cylinders are 7/8" in
diameter, but the manual seems to say that the clutch should be
5/8" ? Furthermore, did they use different master cylinder bores with
the different caliper bores. My S1 has the small front calipers
(1.68" dia) and rear (approx 1.3").

Thanks,

Ben


--- In lotuselan@y..., "Sean Murray" <snmurray@i...> wrote:

assembly will be completely opposite, and so will not be
interchangeable.




























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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Wed Aug 29, 2001 11:58 am


On my LHD S4 the left hand master cylinder is the brake, and the clutch is on the right. At first I thought someone had assembled it wrong then I looked at the pedals and the clutch pedal was too far to the left to fit a master cylinder directly to the pedal so it is actuated by an offset arm, wherethe brake is attached directly to the pedal arm.


Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
***@***.***
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1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending
adventure.
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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:13 pm


As I recall he is asking about a 2 seat Elan not a Plus 2 and the plus 2 pedals are very different from the just 2 Elan. The pictures in my Haynes manual show the Plus 2 having the pedals above the foot box where the just 2 has the pedals in front of the footbox (under the carbs on the RHD.

The Just 2 Elan does not have enough room for the master cylinders to line up directly with the pedals. On the LHD Elan the clutch is on the right (using the standard handedness of the driver sitting in the drivers seat) because otherwise the clutch master cylinder would be into the tire. Looking atthe parts manual it appears that the RHD car has the clutch on the right and attached directly to the clutch pedal. The pedal assembly for a LHD would not work for the RHD and vice versa.


Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending
adventure.
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PostPost by: daves56 » Wed Aug 29, 2001 3:06 pm

Sean,
On a Federal Plus Two I believe the clutch master cylinder used the long
lever and the brake master cylinder (a dual cyl.) used the short. This kept
the pedals at the same static height. These levers are interchangeable.
Perhaps a P.O. swapped them.
Dave Sutcliffe
69 +2

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Murray [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:40 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


Hi Ben,

I just can't make sense of your set -up. Did some dreaded previous owner
concoct this mess ? How can you say "Clearly on the RHD the LH cylinder is
the brake " ? Where are you taking your point of view from ?

Althought the LHD and RHD pedal assemblies are different in all cases the
LH (from driver's point of view) cylinder is the clutch, and the RH is the
brake. My clutch cylinders are 5/8" and the brake 0.70" (Plus 2) As I
said in previous email, my 1968 Plus 2 has a shorter lever to the clutch
cylinder than my 1970 Plus 2S, but the master cylinder bores (5/8") are
the same, but I haven't seen this short lever mentioned or commented on
anywhere.

Best wishes,

Sean Murray
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


Thanks for you help.
(Snip)
One of the things I have noticed that seems different between the RHD
and LHD is the length of the lever arm on to the master sylinder push
rod. It seems to me that on both LHD and RHD the master cylinder on
the left is higher than the one on the right. The height of the
cylinders effects the lever arm length as the pedal axis is fixed.
Clearly on the RHD the LH master cylinder is the brake, but on my LHD
is the LH master cylinder is the clutch. Thus the lever lenght is
different.

To compensate for this did they change the bore diameter to get the
same hydraulic pressure ? Both my master cylinders are 7/8" in
diameter, but the manual seems to say that the clutch should be
5/8" ? Furthermore, did they use different master cylinder bores with
the different caliper bores. My S1 has the small front calipers
(1.68" dia) and rear (approx 1.3").

Thanks,

Ben


--- In lotuselan@y..., "Sean Murray" <snmurray@i...> wrote:

assembly will be completely opposite, and so will not be
interchangeable.




























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PostPost by: Foxie » Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:12 am

Lads,

I recall Hamlet: "Horatio, there are more things on Heaven and Earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy "
Thanks for the explanations.

Sean Murray

----- Original Message -----
From: Sutcliffe, David
To: '***@***.***'
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement


Sean,
On a Federal Plus Two I believe the clutch master cylinder used the long
lever and the brake master cylinder (a dual cyl.) used the short. This kept
the pedals at the same static height. These levers are interchangeable.
Perhaps a P.O. swapped them.
Dave Sutcliffe
69 +2

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Murray [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:40 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement
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PostPost by: jopalm » Thu Aug 30, 2001 1:22 am

On Wednesday, August 29, 2001 at 12:39 AM "Sean Murray" Said:

<snip>


No true...

I can't speak for the RHD cars, but on LHD cars the orientation of the pedals and
master cylinders are "swapped" By this I mean, from the drivers point of view, the
clutch *pedal* is on the left and the brake *pedal* is on the right --BUT-- the
clutch *MC* is on the right and the brake *MC* is on the left.

This comes about because, while the brake pedal connects directly to it's MC, the
clutch does so through a mechanical lever arm which (while still under the dash)
crosses over the top of the brake pedal.

I never really thought about it before, but always assumed it was because a direct
linkage on the clutch pedal (like the brake) might put the MC inside the wheel well.
Now you've got me curious and I'll need to go look at the clearances, etc. later
tonight...

Regards,
-John
'69 Lotus Elan S4 DHC #45/8290
'74 1/2 Jensen Healey #18928
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PostPost by: cusword » Fri Aug 31, 2001 9:19 am

On our S3, RHD, UK car, the brake master cylinder is the large one,
and is on the left. The brake pedal operates its lever
which is at the left hand end of the pedal box.
The clutch pedal/lever is connected directly to the
clutch master cylinder push rod.

All this is when viewed fron the driver's seat.

David

--- In lotuselan@y..., "John Palmer" <j.palmer2@g...> wrote:










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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Sat Sep 01, 2001 4:17 pm

Even Lotus confused themselves in this area! If you look in the official
workshop manual at figure four on page six of the clutch section, the arrow
showing "clutch fluid reservoir" is pointing to the brake fluid reservoir
and figure 3 on page six of the brakes section is pointing to the clutch
reservoir!!!!

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: John Palmer [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 30 August 2001 02:15
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Pedal Box Arragement



On Wednesday, August 29, 2001 at 12:39 AM "Sean Murray" Said:

<snip>



No true...

I can't speak for the RHD cars, but on LHD cars the orientation of the
pedals and
master cylinders are "swapped" By this I mean, from the drivers point of
view, the
clutch *pedal* is on the left and the brake *pedal* is on the right --BUT--
the
clutch *MC* is on the right and the brake *MC* is on the left.

This comes about because, while the brake pedal connects directly to it's
MC, the
clutch does so through a mechanical lever arm which (while still under the
dash)
crosses over the top of the brake pedal.

I never really thought about it before, but always assumed it was because a
direct
linkage on the clutch pedal (like the brake) might put the MC inside the
wheel well.
Now you've got me curious and I'll need to go look at the clearances, etc.
later
tonight...

Regards,
-John
'69 Lotus Elan S4 DHC #45/8290
'74 1/2 Jensen Healey #18928










reserved.




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PostPost by: Harald S. Feeß » Sat Sep 01, 2001 5:33 pm




ditto on my RHD Sprint

Harry
Munich, Germany
71 Elan Sprint FHC
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PostPost by: zuckerlowe » Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:04 am

following on from the messages about the +2 pedal box, I'm in the middle of rebuilding mine and have found that the brake master cylinder is 0.75" when it should be 0.7" or so I'm told by the parts department at Paul Matty's. Apparently seals for the 0.7" were unavailable for some time and so 0.75" cylinders were used instead. As the bore on
the master cylinder is fine, I'd like to avoid the 40 pounds replacement charge for a new 0.7" cylinder. Does anyone know what the 0.75" cylinder is off of or have the Lucas/Girling number for the seals?

All my pedals were unseized but were badly worn (lots of slop). I've made up a new shaft (over size) and welded the broken return spring not sure how long that will work for but it seems OK. The master cylinders were OK but from previous experience, when the slave cylinder seals are replaced the extra strain on the master cylinder seals causes
them to leak soon after. Having realised that it's a pig of a job to replace the master cylinder seals, I thought I'd replace the seals in the brake master cylinder at the same time. Of course the pem that holds the brake master cylinder started turning and I had to hacksaw off the bolt. Having seen where the cylinders are mounted on the s1 - s4
cars I'm feeling just that bit happier about the arrangement on the +2.

Cheers
Steve (50/1040 1968 +2)
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